Allotments 4 All

Did anyone watch Chateau Monty, the TV programme about the vine grower who used Biodynamics in making his wine?

I was pretty convinced that it was a combination of tlc and attention to timing that made the difference. Here's an interesting story:

http://www.wineanorak.com/biodynamic1.htm

Leflaive make very serious Burgundies - prices start at around £30 a bottle, for the bottom end of their range, and go up to £300 even for recent vintages (needless to say I've never drunk any, just read about it). If they're convinced perhaps we should investigate further.

PS 'anthroposophical'  - a new word to me, have looked it up and can't wait to use it :)

Quote from: Moon Grower on February 20, 2009, 09:00:50
Baccy Man
We fully intend to follow all the instructions in the book - which do not include using Horn Manure or Horn Silica - and grow the veggies in the one bed using biodynamic principles

Surely thats like saying you're vegetarian but you eat chicken. If you don't use the biodynamic preparations it doesn't qualify as biodynamic gardening.

The book I am following tells you to use nettles and comfrey to make plant decoctions, we will certainly do that. When Toby ran his trial he didn't use the preparations either. I know how they work as our local CSA uses them but on the scale we are working at it would be impossible.
I think your comparison between folk who claim to be vegetarian and eat chicken and what we are doing is not valid and you are entitled to your opinion.

Isn't that the difference between lunar and biodynamic? Lunar is simply based on the phases of the moon,biodynamic brings in lots ofother things. ???

Is the timing under Biodynamics purely lunar? Surely solstices and equinoxes get a
look in?

I am a Qualified  (B-Tech Nat Diploma in Organic Hortic + Food production) Organic grower. Also have several friends who are Biodynamic growers and do adhere to anthroposophical principles.
here's one of 'em!
http://www.biodynamic.org.uk/demeter/where-to-buy/norfolk.html
Another friend has a couple of allotments run on BDAA guide lines. I Know it seems like a load of bull - sh*t, what with special preps at special times, and special additives to compost heaps, etc, BUT, before you knock it, go and have a look for yourself?
Moon Grower, you can't pick and choose which bits of biodynamics you use, it would be like claiming to be organic and  still using 'a little bit' of Artificial fertiliser 'occasionally'
you are either in or out, not on the fence!!
Day 51 of the 'giving up ciggies sketch' can you tell?  ;)

tonybloke

I have checked with the author of In Tune with the Moon he does not use the two preparations himself simply the plant decoctions... as I am trying to follow the instructions as per his book I am going to give the Horn Manure and Horn Silica a miss this year. I do agree though that most biodynamic growers use them. Reality is we would have needed to plant the cow horn full of muck last autumn time on an appropriate day!

moon phase growing ain't biodynamic growing! You can purchase the relevant preps from the BDAA, you don't have to slaughter your own cattle to get the horns, either!!
As I said earlier, either you stick to all the principles, or not,it's up yo you! ;)

P,S., I use Nick Kollerstrom's book, have you checked that out? he is the BBC's moon phase chap

OK I am an old fogey when it comes to all these theories, having said that I wouldn't dispute them, particularly the 'lunar' sowings.

I see them as pre cursors of when people were unable to read and write, having calendars and diaries and things, so the sun,moon & stars I am sure played their part.

I look at it in this simplistic way;

The plants don't know if the grower is using lunar phases biodynamics or their diary, they will just do their own thing choose what system you use!

Obviously because we all have a reasonable amount of success,  I would say use the system that suits you best and don't knock the others!

Personally I use a diary which OK initially; is not very accurate due to seasonal differences, but after you have kept a diary for nearly 25 years as I have done you will find it becomes quite accurate.

I know nothing about dynamics so I guess I will never contemplate using this method, lunar phases are a bit complicated ( at least to me) but at the end of it all I am quite happy with the results I get using a diary.

Then look at it another way; Each year we have a growing season, seeds to sow, plants to plant etc so choose which system we adopt, plants will do what they want to do choose what method we use.

So I won't knock any of the systems/method discussed here! My philosophy is;  if they work .....fine!!

I was taught away back in the year dot; if you find a way that works for you, don't change it until you find a better method.

So I am sticking with my diary 8)

your posting was spot on, well said Tee Gee

Quote from: Tee Gee on February 20, 2009, 16:17:30
I was taught away back in the year dot; if you find a way that works for you, don't change it until you find a better method.

this is exactly how i try to live my life, i learned this lesson after having my first kid :-\ :)

I find my allotment diary very useful.

I have looked into this Luna planting in the past and all I can conclude is you need endless time to devote to it and no one has yet showed me any proof that Luna planting is any better.

I agree with TEE GEE. :)

Quote from: Tee Gee on February 20, 2009, 16:17:30
if you find a way that works for you, don't change it until you find a better method.

So how do you find a better method if you never change it?  :D

QuoteSo how do you find a better method if you never change it?

I thought I might get asked that one  ::)

There are many ways e.g.

I listen to others or read the posts on A4A for example, and if their is something there that I would like to try, I do, then I compare!

If it is better I change, if its not, I don't.

Same with new varieties of seed, first year I will probably grow about 20-25% of the new variety along with 75-80% 0f a tried and tested variety, then again I compare and again.......If it is better I change if its not I don't.

Simple as that!!

Quote from: betula on February 20, 2009, 16:36:11I have looked into this Luna planting in the past and all I can conclude is you need endless time to devote to it and no one has yet showed me any proof that Luna planting is any better.

I agree with TEE GEE. :)

Have you investigated the t.v. series, (and dvd) 'a year @ Kew? A student there did a trail on a variety of veg and flowers.
Check it out before condemming this, please.
Also most of the Biodynamic growers are doing it commercialy, and therefore do have all day to do it, they ain't weekend gardeners! ;)

Quote from: Moon Grower on February 20, 2009, 14:12:26
I do agree though that most biodynamic growers use them.

If you are Biodynamic you use them, if you don't use them, you ain't! it's as easy as that!
there are no grey areas, as far as I can see.
(I have been known to write to pedants corner in the 'Eye')
It would like claiming to be a vegetarian, but having the occassional Big Mac (other burger brands are available.! I ain't advertising anything!! ;)

Quote from: tonybloke on February 20, 2009, 14:05:09
Another friend has a couple of allotments run on BDAA guide lines. I Know it seems like a load of bull - sh*t, what with special preps at special times, and special additives to compost heaps, etc, BUT, before you knock it, go and have a look for yourself?

There used to be a Steiner school round here a lot of the people who attended it were brainwashed into following Rudolph Steiners other beliefs including biodynamic agriculture. I have tried it following strict guidelines provided by one of these people who is seriously obsessed with biodynamic agriculture so they should know what they were talking about. 50% of the crops were grown biodynamically 50% using my normal methods. All seed used was ovrtpriced biodynamic (demeter certified) to rule out possible differences between seed sources/quality.
Virtually all the biodynamicly grown crops produced lower yields. some failed to fruit at all, they had more disease problems & were generally of lower quality than the control crops despite the use of all the BD preparations & getting far more attention than the control crop. A small percentage was comparable to the control crop (primarily onions & garlic which need very little attention anyway), none was any better.


I realise I come across as being very dismissive of Biodynamics. A great many people believe in it; and practitioners take it all very seriously of course. They are adamant that the spiritual subtleties of Biodynamics are beyond my comprehension. I don't have any scientific evidence to prove that they're wrong. Nobody can actually disprove the existence of the Soniferous Ether or Nature Spirits. So how can I, as a rational individual, discount the possibility of the existence of ten-foot tall, headless, genital-less gnomes in suits of shining armour which help to hold etheric structures in place over your veg? As a point of logic, I have to accept the possibility at least. Of course, intuition tells me it's implausible: how would the gnome keep his helmet on? What stops his codpiece dropping off and breaking his toes?. But are these incongruities a good enough reason to doubt the whole of Biodynamics? Between questions like this & my own experience of biodynamic gardening I would say that in my opinion biodynamic agriculture is indeed the load of bull sh*t it appears to be.

Baccy Man. I shall not belittle the results some gardeners have achieved, not least because I am myself a horticultural novice. However, I am not thick, and I can see that since earliest recorded history, Homo sapiens has held the most incredible beliefs, and divination springs immediately to mind. How about astrology; forecasting the future by watching birds’ behaviour, chance book openings, cards, palm reading, Friday 13th, crystal balls, marks on the ground, observing water courses, inspecting animals’ entrails, Feng Shui, dream interpretation, Ouija boards, dowsing, runes, tarot cards and  spiritualism?

No, what I (as a specimen of Homo sapiens) would like presented, is a rational explanation, of the claimed phenomena (don’t give me fairies and goblins), and failing that, undisputable evidence that these ideas are worthy of consideration……… I’d like my veggie beds to prosper too, and I shall not dismiss any idea provided it is convincing.

Quote from: tonybloke on February 20, 2009, 14:20:09
moon phase growing ain't biodynamic growing! You can purchase the relevant preps from the BDAA, you don't have to slaughter your own cattle to get the horns, either!!
As I said earlier, either you stick to all the principles, or not,it's up yo you! ;)

Your right it isn't... the author describes his method of growing as 'biodynamic' but it a'int
Biodynamic growing does interest me but for this year we will have our moon bed and our organic control bed...

Quote from: tonybloke on February 20, 2009, 18:05:43

Quote from: betula on February 20, 2009, 16:36:11I have looked into this Luna planting in the past and all I can conclude is you need endless time to devote to it and no one has yet showed me any proof that Luna planting is any better.

I agree with TEE GEE. :)

Have you investigated the t.v. series, (and dvd) 'a year @ Kew? A student there did a trail on a variety of veg and flowers.
Check it out before condemming this, please.
Also most of the Biodynamic growers are doing it commercialy, and therefore do have all day to do it, they ain't weekend gardeners! ;)

Never trust a student :P