Allotments 4 All

Last year my wife got an idiot to work on our garden.
He severely pruned (half the main branch of the jupiter) a triple tree jupiter/jester
/fiesta and cut another branch of a d'arcy spice.

Will I still get apples this year do you think?  BTW if  you ever have the opportunity to have someone with Spanish gardening qualifications on your garden just say no.
The ones they get unemployed people to do there don't seem to be very good.

Fruit tree pruning is not quite like pruning any other trees and bushes..some 'rules' do apply and if the 'gardener' is not familiar with the 'rules' they can set the fruiting back by quite few years.
Getting any apples depends if there is mature enough branches left on the tree that carry some flowerbuds.
This winter I've been doing quite a bit of fruit tree pruning...or should I say, trying to correct many pruning mistakes that have been done by other 'gardeners'. Job situation being quite difficult in many areas and occupations, there is lot 'gardeners' out there trying earn some coins but sadly many of them are very limited with the 'right knowledge'.

Cutting back apple trees too drastically will likely to result in "water shoots" - strong growing sappy non fruiting growth caused by an imbalance between top growth and roots. Any spurs that are left will be ok but strong new growth could draw their strength.

Apples need to be spur pruned to produce fruit which will take a few seasons to rebuild from an unfruitful water shoot.

Because your apple is a "family tree" it makes the spur pruning extra complicated, particularly if you want an equal crop from each apple variety. But it can be done if you are determined.

Perhaps you should see what happens in terms of fruiting spurs/water shoots etc reducing the water shoots to a few well placed replacement branches and take it from there.

You will only get fruit if you have fruiting buds; if your tree has water sprouts which are leaf buds and no fruit buds then you will probably only get leafy growth.

We can't say as we can't actually see it.

Letting someone loose with the pruners is in my experience not a good idea.  My brother in law attacked my apple tree once.  It look a long time to recover.  People who say they know what they are doing need careful handling.  I subsequently found out that his trees hardly ever produce much fruit.  Not surprising since he cut off most of the fruiting buds.   

Personally I have taken to the advice to prune during flowering.   If it is not flowering it gets cut off. 

I couldn't upload the images to the image store so here they are.
One is D'Arcy spice the other the family tree.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/14586608@N08/8505305518/in/photostream

http://www.flickr.com/photos/14586608@N08/8505311192/in/photostream

http://www.flickr.com/photos/14586608@N08/8504212427/in/photostream

http://www.flickr.com/photos/14586608@N08/8504216359/in/photostream

http://www.flickr.com/photos/14586608@N08/8504216359/in/photostream

If you have a lot of new growth with no fruit buds you really need to go to summer pruning to encourage fruit buds to form. If you cut back the new wood in late July this does encourage fruiting rather than growth. There is a tendency towards much more summer pruning now as winter pruning does produce more growth.

Quote from: davholla on February 23, 2013, 10:22:16
Last year my wife got an idiot to work on our garden.
He severely pruned (half the main branch of the jupiter) a triple tree jupiter/jester
/fiesta and cut another branch of a d'arcy spice.

Will I still get apples this year do you think?  BTW if  you ever have the opportunity to have someone with Spanish gardening qualifications on your garden just say no.
The ones they get unemployed people to do there don't seem to be very good.

Thanks for that.  Don't worry I will never let anyone else touch the garden again.

Quote from: laurieuk on February 25, 2013, 14:47:39
If you have a lot of new growth with no fruit buds you really need to go to summer pruning to encourage fruit buds to form. If you cut back the new wood in late July this does encourage fruiting rather than growth. There is a tendency towards much more summer pruning now as winter pruning does produce more growth.

Looking at the pictures do you think I will still get fruit this year.

What shape are you trying to grow that into?

Those tall thin upwards branches, they are water sprouts and only have leaf buds on them. What you are looking for is short stumpy but pointy buds; those are flower/fruit buds.

I'd leave that this year, maybe cutting off the water sprouts that are growing straight up - and the other water sprouts to the lowest outward facing bud. But leave any and all fruit buds. And see what happens.

Quote from: aj on February 25, 2013, 16:00:02
What shape are you trying to grow that into?

Those tall thin upwards branches, they are water sprouts and only have leaf buds on them. What you are looking for is short stumpy but pointy buds; those are flower/fruit buds.

I'd leave that this year, maybe cutting off the water sprouts that are growing straight up - and the other water sprouts to the lowest outward facing bud. But leave any and all fruit buds. And see what happens.

I would like it to grow into a bush shape but to be honest I am not really too sure how to prune and unlike some people if I don't know I leave alone.
Do you think I will get any fruit this year?  I guess the jester and fiesta bits which weren't attacked will be ok.  The D'Arcy spice has never been that good
and the taste is not that great.

I planted these in 2007 and have not had a massive amount of apples so maybe I should have pruned the water sprouts (not mentioned in the fruit expert book) to get more fruit.

I don't know - google Apple flower buds, and apple leaf buds, and go see what you have got.

http://apps.rhs.org.uk/advicesearch/Profile.aspx?pid=537

Your first photo shows a cut branch and there are definately fruit buds on it.

On the tree in the second photo I can see fruit buds but watch for water sprouts this summer. This tree looks generally in good shape

The tree in the third photo looks like the biggest problem both in terms of overall shape and in its pruning.

The branch in the forth and fifth photos show some not well thought through pruning. I don't understand why the branch has been tied down horizontally. In some fruit, grapes for example, horizontal training is beneficial but I don't believe apples benefit.

In these photos some of the side shoots have been pruned in a way that would encourage fruit buds to form but there are two unpruned shoots towards the trunk that I can't see the purpose of.

If they are to create a new branch or branches they could not be in a worse place (a half to two thirds of the way up the branch would be better or at the end to extend the branch.

Where they are they will draw the sap first potentially meaning less for the buds further up. Perhaps that is thier role - encouraging fruit buds to form further up. But it is not how I would prune apples or to encourage fruit buds since under this scenario they would have to be removed next pruning season anyway.

After all that, overall it looks like you will have apples this year so breath easy.

I think apples may benefit from having branches tied down, as I've noticed that young trees tend to crop heaviest on low-hanging branches.

Quote from: ed dibbles on February 26, 2013, 12:55:52In these photos some of the side shoots have been pruned in a way that would encourage fruit buds to form but there are two unpruned shoots towards the trunk that I can't see the purpose of.

Is this photo 5?

I will tie down the branch which is currently horizontal to encourage it for next year.
I am quite an amateur gardener and I don't know anyone who knows how to prune apple trees.  My parents have apple trees and have only once pruned one -a very mature bramley and it was so heavily pruned that it didn't crop last year, even though it normally crops in even years.
One thing you can't see on the photos is that he took all the little side branches off, was that a mistake?

Yes photo 5. While it won't prevent the tied down branch from growing ok so won't harm the branch it really isn't vital to tie it horizontally. All it needs is proper pruning.

Firstly leave all fruiting spurs unpruned. In other words don't touch any shoots on a branch that are producing apples. (if your tree in overladen with fruit it's better to thin out the apples in july than prune off spurs)

Non fruiting shoots, usually these are longer than the fruiting spurs, they should be pruned along the lines of the diagram third down in this link:

http://www.gardenaction.co.uk/fruit_veg_diary/fruit_veg_mini_project_september_2e_apple.asp

Basically you are shortening these non fruiting shoots to 2-4 inch stubs. This encourages the tree to make fruit buds instead of growing out.

Whether you do this in the summer as LaurieUK suggests or in the winter when the tree is dormant is your choice, either approach works. Apple pruning is relatively straightforward if you keep things simple - keep the fruiting buds, shorten the non-fruiting shoots. thin the fruit if necessary, watch for pests.

I hope I have explained it ok. The spurs towards the end of the branch in photo 5 have been shortened to a couple of buds. This will encourage fruit buds to form. The long shoots at the base of the trunk will just make a lot of sappy growth as they will get the rising sap first.

As I say you should get some fruit this year so that's something to look forward to.

Thanks all for the advice.  I think I will prune in the summer so I know which ones to prune - it will be easier to see then.

Quote from: laurieuk on February 25, 2013, 14:47:39
If you have a lot of new growth with no fruit buds you really need to go to summer pruning to encourage fruit buds to form. If you cut back the new wood in late July this does encourage fruiting rather than growth. There is a tendency towards much more summer pruning now as winter pruning does produce more growth.

Quote from: davholla on February 23, 2013, 10:22:16
Last year my wife got an idiot to work on our garden.
He severely pruned (half the main branch of the jupiter) a triple tree jupiter/jester
/fiesta and cut another branch of a d'arcy spice.

Will I still get apples this year do you think?  BTW if  you ever have the opportunity to have someone with Spanish gardening qualifications on your garden just say no.
The ones they get unemployed people to do there don't seem to be very good.

Well I just had a look in the garden the D' Arcy spice has no apples.  The family tree despite being fed this year has a lot less than last  year.  Compared to the cordons at the back - the moron didn't go there and trees in pots, the crop doesn't look very good.
Am I right in thinking that the reduced crop is probably due to the pruning.

QuoteAm I right in thinking that the reduced crop is probably due to the pruning

Quite likely..fruiting wood will take couple of years to develop as first year after the pruning the stem needs to grow back, mature and develop some buds and second year you might get odd flower from some of the new buds. It all depends how brutal the pruning was and it can take several years if chop has been really drastic.

Quote from: goodlife on June 02, 2013, 17:57:10

QuoteAm I right in thinking that the reduced crop is probably due to the pruning

Quite likely..fruiting wood will take couple of years to develop as first year after the pruning the stem needs to grow back, mature and develop some buds and second year you might get odd flower from some of the new buds. It all depends how brutal the pruning was and it can take several years if chop has been really drastic.

Did  you see the pictures (obviously no before pictures).  There were some long branches which he thought looked untidy.
To be fair to him the family tree is 3 trees in one and all of them including the two that he left have been affected.
Also we have a bolero tree which is not cropping that well this year  - possibly it over cropped last year.

Could the shock to the system hurt the rest of the tree?