Allotments 4 All

I do hope you can help a newbie.
Our local Parish Council has agreed to lease land to a newly formed Allotment Society after an application by 6 residents (20 actually).  The young man in charge has been doing everything humanly possible to move the project along.  I have great admiration for him because the society will have community plots and those for the disabled within the area. He has put so much effort into it.
The Chairman of the PC offered on a public domain (local forum) a field which he considered to be the best option with regard to water, parking etc.
This was accepted by the Society.
It was agreed at Full Council to leasing the land to the Society with a 25 year lease, but the money committee F&GP have said that they (legally??) can only give a 7 year lease. I believe that there is statute law which means that the land can't be taken away except that a Council provides alternative land and seeks the permissions of the Sec of State, but is there a 7 year lease proviso? (It is something about a discretionary license or lease granted to any community organization where the charge is below the market rate I believe they will be charged £250 p.a.)   It seems strange that other organizations within the parish have been given 25 year leases with peppercorn rents on PC land, why should allotments be an exception?
The young man has provided all the plans drawn up by a Chartered architect and is now being told that more detail is required on the layout. I believe the plan has been drawn to Land Registry specs.

Can you point in the right direction with some info, I should be so grateful and you would be helping a very worthy project, as I am sure you will appreciate.

Short answer is you really, really ought to join the National Society of Allotment and Leisure Gardeners because they have all the knowledge and experience you need in this area.

But give me a minute and I'll give you my thoughts, only not off the top of my head.

You've come to the right place Flotsam - if Unwashed can't point you in the right direction, nobody can.

Your parish council will be letting the allotment site to you under S.127 of the Local Government Act 1972, and S.2 says Except with the consent of the Secretary of State, land shall not be disposed of under this section, otherwise than by way of a short tenancy, for a consideration less than the best that can reasonably be obtained. and S.5 says a short tenancy means less than seven years.

Is that a problem?  A yearly periodic tenancy would avoid the expense of executing a deed and registering with the land registry.

More significant an issue is to whom the site is to be leased?  Is your new society a body corporate or have you created a trust?

Betty, you're too kind! :-*

Hi Unwashed, I do believe that it is s127 of LGA that was quoted last night. As far as I know the following applies. Don't think a trust has been created.
An allotment society has been formed, the PC are allowing £9,000 to cover the costs for the re-provision of water supply, connection of stand pipes and fencing, subject to them controlling the expenditure. It is PC land.
The council will enter into a lease agreement with the Allotments Society for a term of ?? years and instruct its solicitor to draw up the agreement. The agreement includes:
a. Terms of the tenancy agreement.
b. Responsibility for service connection and running costs (Society)
c. Responsibility for fencing and gates (Society)
d. Responsibility for tenancy claims and liability (Society)
e. Landlords Insurance coverage and Liability
f. Tenants Insurance coverage and Liability
g. Council to receive all Financial Reports annually
h. Council to receive the Auditors Report annually
i. Dispute resolution process between Council and Society and Society and members.
j. Ban the keeping of bees
k. Ban the planting of trees, except in pots.
The Council to set an annual rent of the site at £250 pa.

I assume that the lease agreement is what the PC wants to go with. As for terms what is to stop them after seven years deciding that the land is more valuable for development? Would there be safeguards for the Allotment Society, as I said I am a novice but this is the third time that villagers have tried for allotments and this time it looks like it could succeed. I do not know whether the society has joined any organization, but I think it may have. Any advice would be more than welcome including pitfalls.

Unwashed is right you need to join the National Society of Allotment and Leisure Gardeners and then find your Regional Rep of allotments. The Reps can be very helpful and will provide you with up to date rights, legalities and some useful information. The Reps and the society are very supportive  :)

Quote from: Flotsam on July 22, 2010, 22:40:25
Hi Unwashed, I do believe that it is s127 of LGA that was quoted last night. As far as I know the following applies. Don't think a trust has been created.
An allotment society has been formed, the PC are allowing £9,000 to cover the costs for the re-provision of water supply, connection of stand pipes and fencing, subject to them controlling the expenditure. It is PC land.
The council will enter into a lease agreement with the Allotments Society for a term of ?? years and instruct its solicitor to draw up the agreement. The agreement includes:
a. Terms of the tenancy agreement.
b. Responsibility for service connection and running costs (Society)
c. Responsibility for fencing and gates (Society)
d. Responsibility for tenancy claims and liability (Society)
e. Landlords Insurance coverage and Liability
f. Tenants Insurance coverage and Liability
g. Council to receive all Financial Reports annually
h. Council to receive the Auditors Report annually
i. Dispute resolution process between Council and Society and Society and members.
j. Ban the keeping of bees
k. Ban the planting of trees, except in pots.
The Council to set an annual rent of the site at £250 pa.

I assume that the lease agreement is what the PC wants to go with. As for terms what is to stop them after seven years deciding that the land is more valuable for development? Would there be safeguards for the Allotment Society, as I said I am a novice but this is the third time that villagers have tried for allotments and this time it looks like it could succeed. I do not know whether the society has joined any organization, but I think it may have. Any advice would be more than welcome including pitfalls.

Like I said, an important question is who the site will be leased to.  If the society is not a body corporate then the council cannot lease the site to it, it can only lease the site to a natural or legal person, and an unincorporated association is neither.  You might incorporate as an Industrial and Provident Soceity, a Company Limited by Guarantee, or Community Interest Company, none of which is simple for a new society finding its feet, or you could set up a trust, and that has its own challenges too.  A much simpler arrangement is for the PC to appoint the society as agent and have the soceity manage the site under a formal management agreement and not lease it the site at all.  It's a whole bunch easier, especially while you're finding your feet.

Whether the Council can turn you off the land and develop it depends in part on how the council came to own the land in the first place, and specifically whether it acquired the site specifically for allotments.  If not then you still have some protection from PPG17.

Where are you in the country - I'm assuming at a minimum England or Wales?  How big is the site?  £250/year is not what I'd call a peppercorn rent.

I have just emailed the lad who is arranging this and have passed on your questions, as well as your expert answers, I hope you don't mind. 

Perhaps he will join your site for himself when he gets a chance to look. I have only just let him know about it. The site is a playing field which the council no longer use, used to be football etc but they have better facilities elsewhere. We are in Sussex. The whole area is not for allotments, there is a children's swing park there, too. Not too sure how big the site is, but once I hear back I'll let you know. £250, peppercorn .. nor I. The first year was going to be £0, second £100, third £150 and the next £250, but the Finance man said no!! I am grateful for your knowledge, Unwashed. Thanks.

Hi everyone.

I am involved in this project and have been pointed in the direction of this site by Flotsam.

Firstly, thanks for taking the time to reply.

Just to confirm we have incorporated an amount into the site fees for the NSALG and are in the process of joining.

I am a bit concerned about some of the information given, I have taken advice on this and done a huge amount of research.  Perhaps I could put my point of views across.


With regard to the lease length, S127 does apply, BUT a set of General Consents existing, enacted in 1998 and more recently explained in great detail in Circular 06/03 that remove the need to refer to the Secretary of State in all cases where the sums are less than £2 Million.  There are a number of other exeptions as well.  The Local Authority has the power to grant these leases of any length without reference to anyone else.

The lease is between the Council and the Trustees of the Society.  Are you saying this is not legal?   The Society is based on the NSALG draft constitution for Associations. 

I have copies of at leases and constitustions from at least 25 other Societies in the area and they ALL elect officials using the NSALG contitustion and they ALL lease land from the Local Authority.

If you research further on the Internet there are a huge number of Societys who publish their Constitution and Lease and they are virtually all the same.

There is no way it cannot be legal,  if it is then all the various solicitors who have drawn up the leases have acted illegally!!

I just wanted to clear this up as some of the information given is inaccurate and that can be very dangerous when a lot of councils are trying anything they can to shirk their responsibilites to provide allotments!!








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Quote from: snoopy on July 23, 2010, 08:07:42
With regard to the lease length, S127 does apply, BUT a set of General Consents existing, enacted in 1998 and more recently explained in great detail in Circular 06/03 that remove the need to refer to the Secretary of State in all cases where the sums are less than £2 Million.  There are a number of other exeptions as well.  The Local Authority has the power to grant these leases of any length without reference to anyone else.

Shouldn't you be making this argument to the F&GP?  I wasn't aware of Circular 06/03, and maybe the PC aren't.

Quote from: snoopy on July 23, 2010, 08:07:42
The lease is between the Council and the Trustees of the Society.  Are you saying this is not legal?   The Society is based on the NSALG draft constitution for Associations. 

Read what I wrote.  The council cannot lease the site to an unincorporated association because it is not a legal entity.

It can lease the site to a body corporate such as an Industrial and Provident Company, and it can lease the site to a trust, and a society constituted with the NSALG's model rules for an unregistered society is neither.  The NSALG's model rules for a registered society create the former, but the model rules for an unregistered society create an unincorporated association and expect it to work in cooperation with a council landlord.

Like I said, the council can lease the site to a trust but the trust deed would have to be drawn up carefully and coordinated with the society's constitution, and the NSALG don't appear to have a template for the arrangement.  It's a complicated arrangement because you have these two cooperating organisations, the trust that owns the lease, and the society that manages the site.  It can be coordinated, but you'll have to tell a solicitor what you want to do.

It's possible that leasing the site to the officers of the society actually creates a trust, but it's not the kind of thing you want to do implicitly because it creates all kind of problems, not least of which is that the officers might not appreciate their personal legal responsibilities, but it's also really helpful to have these responsibilities unambiguously defined so there is no room for confusion when disputes arise.

It's my guess that if the society needs to own property then it would be simpler in the long run to be constituted as a body corporate, and I would also guess that it doesn't need to own the lease, at least not for a couple of years.

Quote from: snoopy on July 23, 2010, 08:07:42
I have copies of at leases and constitustions from at least 25 other Societies in the area and they ALL elect officials using the NSALG contitustion and they ALL lease land from the Local Authority.

If you research further on the Internet there are a huge number of Societys who publish their Constitution and Lease and they are virtually all the same.

There is no way it cannot be legal,  if it is then all the various solicitors who have drawn up the leases have acted illegally!!

Post the links and let's see how they do it.

Quote from: snoopy on July 23, 2010, 08:07:42
I just wanted to clear this up as some of the information given is inaccurate and that can be very dangerous when a lot of councils are trying anything they can to shirk their responsibilites to provide allotments!!

:-\

Unwashed, I did not come here for an argument.

I just wanted to point out there were some fairly serious inaccuracies in the information.

I am well aware that Local Authorities use specialist websites and forums for information, especially in the early stages of something. If they find the wrong information it causes huge problems, this is prety much what has happened to us.

As far as I am concerned not knowing is absolutely no excuse. If you are going to quote any legislation you need to be 100% sure you are aware of any and all parts of that legislation that may apply. Especially if you are a Local Authority with the whole mechanism of Local Government behind you.  If I can find it then they d**n well should be able to!!

As for putting links - I really do not have the time having spent all day writing a 16 page letter to the council but a quick google will find what you need.

Do you mean that you think most local authorities are happy to provide allotments to anyone, if so why is there 70,000 people on waiting lists.  They generally are not interested and see it only as an added expense.


Can I ask - Are you a Lawyer?

Hi Snoopy,

No he is not, however he has said himself that he is classed as a Vexatious complainant by his council, read some of the other topics.

I have always found in all walks of life its best to deal with people in a reasonable and nonconfrontational manner to get the best results for both sides.

Vegwise
 

 

Hello snoopy....................strange that vegwise needs to answer the question that was asked of someone else don't you think?

Quote from: vegwise on July 24, 2010, 20:47:15

Hi Snoopy,

No he is not, however he has said himself that he is classed as a Vexatious complainant by his council, read some of the other topics.

I have always found in all walks of life its best to deal with people in a reasonable and nonconfrontational manner to get the best results for both sides.

Vegwise

why are you following 'Unwashed' around the forum?
why are you answering questions for him? He is a grown-up, and can answer for himself!! ;)

Sorry All - I did not mean to cause an argument here.

QuoteI have always found in all walks of life its best to deal with people in a reasonable and nonconfrontational manner to get the best results for both sides.

Just wanted to clear up a few things.  I thought I was being pretty reasonable, and more importantly accurate.

Quotehowever he has said himself that he is classed as a Vexatious complainant by his council

Ahhh all becomes clear!!  Not a badge of honour I would have thought, usually classed as wasting taxpayers money with frivolous complaints  :-\

Anyway all is going well with our project and we should shortly have 100 new allotments for our village.

Unwashed is a regular and popular member of this forum.  He is very helpful with various matters,  he often does a gteat deal to encourage people to find out more information and stand up for themselves in the case of disputes.   We do not find him vexatious.

Please do not let this put you off our forum. 

Regards D

Quote from: Digeroo on August 04, 2010, 21:45:02
We do not find him vexatious.

I take issue with that. ;)

You haven't succeeded in annoying me yet. Try harder!