Topic: Schools and railway sleepers

[Melbourne12]

Back in the day, we used to slosh creosote everywhere on outdoor timbers.  And use Jeyes Fluid.

I think there's a bit of overreaction to the dangers of creosote.  OK, don't put your sandwich down on freshly creosoted woodwork, nor lick your fingers after handling the stuff, but old railway sleepers?  What's the mechanism by which the supposed deadly tar products are going to get into your carrots and cabbages?  And how much is actually going to leach out?  It's ignorably small, isn't it?

[tonybloke]

it may be, melbourne, but if the schoolchildren get the stuff all over their clothes, would you want to wash the crap out?
also, in todays litigious society, ain't it better safe than sorry?

[Melbourne12]

it may be, melbourne, but if the schoolchildren get the stuff all over their clothes, would you want to wash the crap out?
also, in todays litigious society, ain't it better safe than sorry?

I take your point, but these aren't newly tarred sleepers.  They're many years old - so old that they've been retired and removed by the railway, stored, and have ended up as a nice strong raised bed.  Time and weather has long ago removed any surface stickiness.

Otherwise we'd fear to sit down on a bench that had once been painted or varnished for fear of the deadly chemicals that might suddenly leap out and overwhelm us.  Should I perhaps not sit on the loo, for fear of the bleach with which it has been cleaned this morning?  It's deadly poison, y'know.

[Steve.]

I would not even have the old ones in my garden..anywhere!

Could be 20,30 years or more of freight trains running over the top of them, leaking unknown ammounts of unknown chemicals onto them. Why would you buy old with their associated health risks when you can buy brand new to do the same job?

Steve...:)

[tonybloke]

it may be, melbourne, but if the schoolchildren get the stuff all over their clothes, would you want to wash the crap out?
also, in todays litigious society, ain't it better safe than sorry?

I take your point, but these aren't newly tarred sleepers.  They're many years old - so old that they've been retired and removed by the railway, stored, and have ended up as a nice strong raised bed.  Time and weather has long ago removed any surface stickiness.

you missed this bit in the original post, then?

The beds are made from very old railway sleepers that we could see were still seeping.

Otherwise we'd fear to sit down on a bench that had once been painted or varnished for fear of the deadly chemicals that might suddenly leap out and overwhelm us.  Should I perhaps not sit on the loo, for fear of the bleach with which it has been cleaned this morning?  It's deadly poison, y'know.

painted and / or varnished  benches, have a tendency to 'cure' and leave a hard, non-sticky coating, unlike creosote soaked sleepers!!

as for your fears r.e. bleach or other toilet cleaners,  would you let a toddler / young child play with it?

[landimad]

Back in the day, we used to slosh creosote everywhere on outdoor timbers.  And use Jeyes Fluid.

I think there's a bit of overreaction to the dangers of creosote.  OK, don't put your sandwich down on freshly creosoted woodwork, nor lick your fingers after handling the stuff, but old railway sleepers?  What's the mechanism by which the supposed deadly tar products are going to get into your carrots and cabbages?  And how much is actually going to leach out?  It's ignorably small, isn't it?

As I stated before hand, I work with these types of sleeper and others. When I say we had to change the way we install them the reason for this is that they leach into the water table and we have to pay heavily in fines for this.
To use them in a school environment would be stupid, the kids are more prone to bugs as their systems are not fully developed yet.
I have used sleepers in my garden, and have ensured they are from a good source and have been wrapped with butyl liner before laying down. This way there is no leaching of toxins into the soil or food we eat.
If you don't believe the replies to this thread then look at the following link.
http://www.tec.org.au/safersolutions/a/63-creosote
Use with caution or find some new ones which are not soaked in this substance. 

[tonybloke]

Back in the day, we used to slosh creosote everywhere on outdoor timbers.  And use Jeyes Fluid.

I think there's a bit of overreaction to the dangers of creosote.  OK, don't put your sandwich down on freshly creosoted woodwork, nor lick your fingers after handling the stuff, but old railway sleepers?  What's the mechanism by which the supposed deadly tar products are going to get into your carrots and cabbages?  And how much is actually going to leach out?  It's ignorably small, isn't it?

As I stated before hand, I work with these types of sleeper and others. When I say we had to change the way we install them the reason for this is that they leach into the water table and we have to pay heavily in fines for this.
To use them in a school environment would be stupid, the kids are more prone to bugs as their systems are not fully developed yet.
I have used sleepers in my garden, and have ensured they are from a good source and have been wrapped with butyl liner before laying down. This way there is no leaching of toxins into the soil or food we eat.
If you don't believe the replies to this thread then look at the following link.
http://www.tec.org.au/safersolutions/a/63-creosote
Use with caution or find some new ones which are not soaked in this substance. 

thanks for an informative post, not just biased rhetoric.

[manicscousers]

Thanks for that, landiman, I'm going to print all this to refer to at the meeting on saturday  :)

[aj]

When you can get brand new clean sleepers from Wickes for a reasonable price, there's no reason not to flippin use them!

[daitheplant]

When theses treated sleepers warm up the substance they weep seems more vitrous (sic) than Creostote. Not nice at all.

[Melbourne12]

Back in the day, we used to slosh creosote everywhere on outdoor timbers.  And use Jeyes Fluid.

I think there's a bit of overreaction to the dangers of creosote.  OK, don't put your sandwich down on freshly creosoted woodwork, nor lick your fingers after handling the stuff, but old railway sleepers?  What's the mechanism by which the supposed deadly tar products are going to get into your carrots and cabbages?  And how much is actually going to leach out?  It's ignorably small, isn't it?

As I stated before hand, I work with these types of sleeper and others. When I say we had to change the way we install them the reason for this is that they leach into the water table and we have to pay heavily in fines for this.
To use them in a school environment would be stupid, the kids are more prone to bugs as their systems are not fully developed yet.
I have used sleepers in my garden, and have ensured they are from a good source and have been wrapped with butyl liner before laying down. This way there is no leaching of toxins into the soil or food we eat.
If you don't believe the replies to this thread then look at the following link.
http://www.tec.org.au/safersolutions/a/63-creosote
Use with caution or find some new ones which are not soaked in this substance. 

thanks for an informative post, not just biased rhetoric.

All I want is a clear explanation of how these compounds migrate into vegetables, not a link to some green politics site.

And, just for your information, the compounds in creosote may indeed be toxic, but they are certainly not toxins.  Whenever you see the word "toxin", its a pound to a pinch of organic manure that the author is a propagandist, and wouldn't know a scientific analysis if it walked into a steelyard.

[tonybloke]

Back in the day, we used to slosh creosote everywhere on outdoor timbers.  And use Jeyes Fluid.

I think there's a bit of overreaction to the dangers of creosote.  OK, don't put your sandwich down on freshly creosoted woodwork, nor lick your fingers after handling the stuff, but old railway sleepers?  What's the mechanism by which the supposed deadly tar products are going to get into your carrots and cabbages?  And how much is actually going to leach out?  It's ignorably small, isn't it?

As I stated before hand, I work with these types of sleeper and others. When I say we had to change the way we install them the reason for this is that they leach into the water table and we have to pay heavily in fines for this.
To use them in a school environment would be stupid, the kids are more prone to bugs as their systems are not fully developed yet.
I have used sleepers in my garden, and have ensured they are from a good source and have been wrapped with butyl liner before laying down. This way there is no leaching of toxins into the soil or food we eat.
If you don't believe the replies to this thread then look at the following link.
http://www.tec.org.au/safersolutions/a/63-creosote
Use with caution or find some new ones which are not soaked in this substance. 

thanks for an informative post, not just biased rhetoric.

All I want is a clear explanation of how these compounds migrate into vegetables, not a link to some green politics site.

And, just for your information, the compounds in creosote may indeed be toxic, but they are certainly not toxins.  Whenever you see the word "toxin", its a pound to a pinch of organic manure that the author is a propagandist, and wouldn't know a scientific analysis if it walked into a steelyard.

I've tried to see things from your point of view, but I couldn't fit my head up your arse-hole too!
well done, you're the first to be put on 'ignore' for a couple of years!

[landimad]

Back in the day, we used to slosh creosote everywhere on outdoor timbers.  And use Jeyes Fluid.

I think there's a bit of overreaction to the dangers of creosote.  OK, don't put your sandwich down on freshly creosoted woodwork, nor lick your fingers after handling the stuff, but old railway sleepers?  What's the mechanism by which the supposed deadly tar products are going to get into your carrots and cabbages?  And how much is actually going to leach out?  It's ignorably small, isn't it?

As I stated before hand, I work with these types of sleeper and others. When I say we had to change the way we install them the reason for this is that they leach into the water table and we have to pay heavily in fines for this.
To use them in a school environment would be stupid, the kids are more prone to bugs as their systems are not fully developed yet.
I have used sleepers in my garden, and have ensured they are from a good source and have been wrapped with butyl liner before laying down. This way there is no leaching of toxins into the soil or food we eat.
If you don't believe the replies to this thread then look at the following link.
http://www.tec.org.au/safersolutions/a/63-creosote
Use with caution or find some new ones which are not soaked in this substance. 

thanks for an informative post, not just biased rhetoric.

All I want is a clear explanation of how these compounds migrate into vegetables, not a link to some green politics site.

And, just for your information, the compounds in creosote may indeed be toxic, but they are certainly not toxins.  Whenever you see the word "toxin", its a pound to a pinch of organic manure that the author is a propagandist, and wouldn't know a scientific analysis if it walked into a steelyard.

For your information, I am not an educated person as my schooling was approved.
I am a man of the land and physical is all I know.
If you want education talk to those who get one, I did not.
I see things for what they are and do not put them into words well.
I have seen the effects of what creosote does to the insides of a human and what happens if they fall into the tank which when they try to hook up the timbers after they have been soaking for the length of time they need to be.
I lost him to this liquid and its not a nice way to go.
Do not get on your high horse and spout a language that I am not able to understand as I am a human not a dictionary.
I tell it as it is if you wish to help me with my diction thank you but do not force diction my way as I rebel against this.
My background is farming not University, done the old way.
If it ain't broke don't mess with it.

[timnsal]

You could try the law
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2003/1511/contents/made

From the explanatory notes:

Wood treated before the Regulations come into force may be supplied for second-hand use (regulation 5(5)), and its use is restricted by regulation 6.

Treated wood may not be used in the situations specified in regulation 6, including inside any buildings, in toys and in playgrounds. Where treated wood is in use before the Regulations came into force its continued use is not affected by the restrictions on use in regulation 6.

Section 6 also prohibits its use for containers used for growing purposes, or anything which comes into contact with food for humans or animals.

[Melbourne12]

You could try the law
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2003/1511/contents/made

From the explanatory notes:

Wood treated before the Regulations come into force may be supplied for second-hand use (regulation 5(5)), and its use is restricted by regulation 6.

Treated wood may not be used in the situations specified in regulation 6, including inside any buildings, in toys and in playgrounds. Where treated wood is in use before the Regulations came into force its continued use is not affected by the restrictions on use in regulation 6.

Section 6 also prohibits its use for containers used for growing purposes, or anything which comes into contact with food for humans or animals.

I'll no doubt be flamed again (or was it lightly flambéed?) but Section 6 para 3 says "(3) The prohibition in paragraph (1) on the use of treated wood does not apply where the treated wood was in such use before these Regulations came into force."  So it's not sufficient of a risk to dismantle existing installations.

Now I realise that the school in the OP had apparently used the sleepers in 2010, which of course would be after the regulations came into force, but I certainly shan't be discarding the sleepers that I use.

And it does seem a shame to take away the small pleasure that the schoolchildren could take in growing things by this sort of busybody attitude.

The school is not, in spite of what recent posters apparently think, going to dunk the schoolchildren in tanks of creosote.  We're just talking about a bit of wood preservative applied years, probably decades, ago, and posing no practical threat at all.

[timnsal]

Agree that it's not necessary according to those regulations to dismantle installations that were in place before 2003.

Maybe the government are busybodies, but presumably someone with some scientific knowledge doesn't agree with your assessment of the risks

[landimad]

Try here.

http://webarchive.nationalarchives.gov.uk/+/http://www.dti.gov.uk/ccp/consultpdf/creosote.htm

[manicscousers]

busybodies  ??? :-X

[cornykev]

Mal I think busy bodys = some kind lottie holders going along to a school offeringa bit of gardening help and advice on invitation, and when the so called teacher/head was giving sound advise on the dangers of seeping sleepers and was shot down, it was no wonder you was concerned and asked advise on here, it's a shame that nowdays the concern for childrens health gets billed into the bracket of busy bodies.     :( :( :(

[Melbourne12]

Mal I think busy bodys = some kind lottie holders going along to a school offeringa bit of gardening help and advice on invitation, and when the so called teacher/head was giving sound advise on the dangers of seeping sleepers and was shot down, it was no wonder you was concerned and asked advise on here, it's a shame that nowdays the concern for childrens health gets billed into the bracket of busy bodies.     :( :( :(

But only by me, in a minority of one.  God is, as always, on the side of the big battalions.  And when it comes to health and safety, the battalions don't come any bigger than the Royal Regiment of Killjoys.  So I'm sure the children's garden will be dismantled, and we can all sleep a little easier in our beds.

Anyway, watch this space.  During my formative years, it was always my job to creosote the fences and the sheds.  Indeed my old dad used to like to have the inside of his shed creosoted as well as the outside, so I used to be fairly covered in the stuff as well as inhaling it.  I used to have a special gardening pullover which ponged of creosote.  Indeed the smell masked the other now-banned pesticides and fungicides that I used to spray.

I've used creosote freely ever since, although obviously in recent years it hasn't been available.  But we still eat lottie produce grown alongside timbers that have been creosoted.

So I've arranged with my wife to post the news of my creosote-induced demise on here just as soon as it happens, assuming that the deadly creosote is bound to strike sooner rather than later.  Obviously, if I'm run over by a bus first, that would spoil the experiment.

Perhaps I could run a sweepstake ...