Allotment size - does it include paths?

[NightWish]

This was a matter of heated discussion today.  Our plots are all sorts of sizes - but all are charged at a standard price for a 5 rod plot.

Someone was measuring the growing area of their plot - and was asking whether the growing area included his half of the surrounding grass paths.  This was important to him as he is going to try and claim that as he's only got 3.5 rods (excluding the paths) that he should only pay for 3.5 rods!

I got volutold to ask the internet?

Cheers

[NightWish]

[Tee Gee]

Someone was measuring the growing area of their plot - and was asking whether the growing area included his half of the surrounding grass paths. 

This was important to him as he is going to try and claim that as he's only got 3.5 rods (excluding the paths) that he should only pay for 3.5 rods!

A lot depends upon how the plots are laid out in my opinion, i.e. are the paths rights of way / general access, or specific to the plot.

For example our plot is rectangular with an access track up the middle and 12 plots are laid out at right angles to to the track.

Between each plot there is a path and like your plot holders there has been questions raised over the years  but as I recall no one was has ever made an issue of it.

How we resolve it is as follows: Stand on the track and look down/up your plot and the path to the left is yours.

I initiated this rule in relation to how my boundaries have been determined by solicitors / land registry for my semi-detached house. eg.

I am responsible for the upkeep of the boundary on the party wall side of the garden whereas my neighbour/s is/are responsible for the boundary between the blocks of semis.

This seems to work quite well!

Another factor is the width of the dividing footpaths if the neighbouring path is rather wide then the adjacent plot holder has call to complain as his/her growing area has been reduced.

So to sum up my opinion:

a plot should include for one footpath within its boundaries.

If the plots are irregular in shape then some alternative arrangements should be made by the adjacent plot holders as to who's is who's and this should be the norm should one or more of these plot holders move on, and then the new plot holder will know their rights/responsibilities.

But getting into the realms of paying for you plot by the area should be avoided.
We only have full or half plots on our site I am quite lucky my half plot is nearer to being a three quarter plot, but the rules are rules so this is accepted by all the plot holders.

Sounds that you need a site plan showing plot sizes and details of what plot is responsible for which  path/s displaying on your noticeboard.


Best of luck!

ps Are plot holder becoming more and more obsessed with bureaucracy these days? It would seem so with the number of comments appearing on these boards lately.

To me an allotment was to leave bureaucracy and officialdom at home or in the workplace and totally switch off and tend our plot/s.

I have served under five secretaries since going on my plot nearly thirty years ago and each successor has got more and more 'power mad' so I tend to mind my own business and get on with it.....why?.............. I am switched off!

In my opinion a secretary should only be a go-for between the tenants and the landlord and vice versa.

That is basically they have no authority as such, but having said that they should be respected. (Providing they earn it)

I'll get of my box now................over to you.

[Ellen K]

On our site the plot boundaries are mostly clear and their is no "no mans land" in between them though there is a central ring road on the site.

The paths in between plots are supposed to be shared, each plot was supposed to yield 18 inches of land to make a 3 ft wide path, wide enough to get a wheelbarrow down without damaging crops.  But various greedy plotholders have pushed the path over so it is entirely hosted by a neighbour.  When I took mine on, both neighbours either side had done it and more so my plot was only 7 yards wide (all plots are 10 x 30 yards on our site, 10 rods).  And they didn't like it when I pointed this out "The Council did it" etc.  One neighbour (who already had a double plot) told me to renegotiate my rent with the Council based on having a smaller plot.  Wrong answer sweetheart!  I put up a fence.  So now there is no path on that side and that's fine with me.

But it is something else here NW.  If each plot is rented out at the same price, regardless of exact size, well it's just tough if his is a bit small.  But if there is a map of the site with plot boundaries marked and each plot is defined as at least 5 rods, then he may have a case.  My bill from the Council says 300 sq yards @ £17 per 100 sq yards so it's quite specific about what we are renting.  But yes, paths in between plots that are there for the use of the adjacent plots come out of the plotholders land.

[daveyboi]

I think most allotments include  either half the path between plots each side or one path on one side in their area.

For example Ealing state

Allotments are traditionally measured in rods or poles (they're the same thing). A pole is a measure of area equal to 16.5 by 16.5 sq ft, or 272.25 sq ft. This is approximately 30 sq yards or 25 sq metres. The size of an allotment plot includes half of each of the surrounding paths. Allotments in Ealing are typically 5 or 10 poles, but can be any size and are sometimes sub-divided into smaller plots. The actual area is not guaranteed to be an exact measurement – paths can move over time.

Is there anything in your tenancy agreement regarding size or paths?

[sparrow]

Paths between plots on our site are also no-mans-land, with the result that they aren't always looked after very well. They don't tend to get eaten into though, as they are only about 2ft wide. All our plots are defined as half plots, though they vary in size from 90sqm to 130sqm because the field is an odd shape.

If he has a much smaller plot and pays by the rod I'd think he would have a case for reduced rent. It's so much easier to charge a flat rate by plot.

[johhnyco15]

on our site 84 plots 42 each side each plot has its own path so its included in the measurment its the path to the right of your plot the path should be 18 inches wide min  hope this helps

[bluecar]

Hello all.

A few thoughts.

Like us you have plots of different sizes. If an individual is so concerned about their rent and their plot size then the only way of satisfying this is to measure each plot and come up with a costing for each plot based on its measurement - whether that be a precise calculation per square metre or a banded calculation is down to your site administrators (committee or landlord). There will be winners and losers so it would need the support of the majority of plot holders to go down this route.

The paths, to me, seem almost a red herring - you either include them based on some (pardon the pun) ground rule such as 50-50 or the one on the left is yours but whether they are included or not the proportion of individual plots should remain relatively the same.  As Sparrow says it easier to charge by the plot and on their site they vary, as our, enormously

As Tee Gee says the internal politics seem to be increasing and detracting from the pleasure of having an allotment.

We have seen some issues which have needed support and advice from members of the forum. To me the rent for an individual allotment based on whether it includes the paths or not is a site issue.

Sorry if this sounds negative.

Regards

Bluecar

[picman]

Well on our site the path nearest to the gate belongs to the plot therefore the plotholders responsibility , any other site paths are the Association's / landlord's ( Council's ) , Plot paths have to be 18" apx and kept weed free and the grass mown...

[Digeroo]

I suppose when plot were cheap the exact size did not matter.  However now that charges have been increasing I am sure people do not want to feel they are paying for something they are not getting. 

I would like to know whether the plot in question is smaller than other plots on the site, ie how much are others loosing to paths?

[NightWish]

This came about because a plotholder was after a larger plot, was offered the "half" plot next to his instead of, or as well as his, and when he looked at the two together decided that neither of them was even four rods, he thinks that the two plots together are barely 7 rods; for which he would be charged the same as a near neighbour who has two half plots that amount to 12 rods; and couldn't see why he was being asked to pay the same for 7 rods as someone else was for 12.

The tenancy agreement says we are paying "per rod", but he wasn't sure how precisely to measure his plot, and he seemed to think I would no (not that I'm the site rep or anything, I've just been there quite a time). Hence the question.

Money, in this instance, I believe is tight, and as has been said, when we were only paying a peppercorn rent it didn't really matter, but his attitude is that the extra he would be paying would cover his seed bill for a year!  In this instance the amount under the five rods is quite a large percentage, and I can see why he is annoyed.

It does seem though that paths and boundaries cause more issues where I am than weeds and bad housekeeping.

Thank you for your comments everyone, I shall pass them on.

[Bill Door]

I am with Tee Gee on this one.

First rule of work is "don't volunteer".  First rule of relaxation is "don't volunteer".

It is always the same.  One person gets on their high horse and sends the other 500 to oblivion.  I can see that this will/could escalate and some will want to pay less and others will not want to pay more!  You will end up with no winners and a lot of bad feeling all over the place.

If money is involved (How much by the way) then yes it is tough but sometimes one has to fight ones own battles or make do with what you have.

Bill

[squeezyjohn]

I think this way of thinking is going to ruin allotmenting!  A plot's area is only one way in which it's value could be measured.  What about plots with poorer soil, plots with less sunlight, plots with an existing shed, plots which are closer to the water supply ... the list is endless!  You could end up with volunteers being subjected to more and more demands on making calculations for what the fee should be exactly for every plot and it would just waste time!

Why don't people just accept that "this plot costs that much" take it or leave it!

I feel the same way about kids not going to the school that's closest to them because of league tables and things like that ... people have far too high an opinion of themselves and their rights today!

[Digeroo]

I presume that those people who have been lucky and got bigger plots are happy with the things as they are and do not want all the plots measured.

[ACE]

I just found his thread and will post my experience, I wanted a plot, was offered a plot, I viewed the plot and surrounding paths. I was given a price for the plot and I accepted. Now I am not going to start shouting about paths as I agreed to take it as seen, I expect everybody else has done this.  I might question a price rise for later years, but will not start shouting about, 'he's got more than me'. If you are not happy with what you have got, why did you agree to it in the first place?

[BarriedaleNick]

We do charge by the rod as our plots are all shapes and sizes.  Some folk do get shirty about the size of their plots and demand them to be measured again.  Last two times this has happened we found the plots were under measured and informed the holder that their rent would go up!  Most people, like Ace, take a plot based on what they see and are quite happy with it.  We don't include paths.

[johhnyco15]

im with ace too on this you take on the plot if your happy it shouldnt matter  if it does maybe your in the wrong hobby

[nodig]

You could ask the secretary the very reasonable question as to whether a path is half yours, all yours or not yours at all.  Unfortunately many site secretaries prefer to keep ancient wisdoms in a little black book passed down through the generations. The book will be full of old superstitions and magic chants which mere plot holders can never see. He(she) will wait until you perhaps widen the path or trim it down or do nothing to it, any of which will bring about an instant magical verbal chant more commonly known as a verbal warning......welcome to the black magic that replaces proper rules on many allotment sites in the UK.  A few of these magic chanters appear on these forums, so beware!   

[Deb P]

Going back to the original post, you state all plots are different shapes and sizes, but are charged the same rate. This answers your own question, it makes no difference what the area is, or how much of whatever path is included, the price is the same. So, if you fellow plotter wishes to take advantage of having additional growing space, he knows exactly what it will cost him regardless of the actual area he gains.
It is up to him if he wants to take advantage of a plot right next door to his own (preferable in my opinion) or wait until a bigger area plot that would clearly be better 'value' becomes available that might not happen for ages and then might be at the other end if the site. It's a simple choice and entirely up to him. Presumably everyone has accepted your sites pricing arrangement until now, if he wishes to challenge that policy, presumably there is an AGM he can bring it up at? I'm sure those with larger plots will not want to rock the boat though.....!

[nodig]

I think you have gone off the path slightly Deb P.  NightWish stated right at the start that he wanted to know if a footpath was included within a certain plot or not.  The fact that all plots are charged the same irrespective of plot size was not the point, or whether it was right or wrong that different sized plots were charged the same amount......can you see it now.

[bluecar]

If the tenancy agreement is saying you are paying by the rod, then there is a good reason to query why 7 rods costs the same as 12. As mentioned before the surrounding paths would seem a red herring as unless they aer huge then it shouldn't make much difference, for comparison purposes whether they are included or not.

However, if custom and practice is to pay by the current plot (not by the rod) then if this plot holder has a plot currently valued at (say) £20 and the offered plot is currently valued at (say) £25, then it would seem reasonable that the charge for both plots be £45.

Regards

Bluecar