Allotments 4 All

Quote from: ancellsfarmer on October 02, 2013, 20:07:35

Quote from: Floyds on October 02, 2013, 10:32:51

Quote from: ancellsfarmer on October 02, 2013, 06:47:53
"Did the Wizard beans taste like broad beans?"
Yes, First picking was of immature pods to get the "early taste".Then the main broad beans came onstream and theWizards got overlooked and quickly went past , hence a high seed production.
The Realseed mantra of "Dont buy from us, save your own" is an curious business model but at least one can.

You could save your Wizard bean seed for next year but as you have also grown another variety of broad bean any cross pollination would not keep you Wizards pure, so I'm told. They would probably turn out OZ like the following season so you'll be back to Real Seeds for another purchase!
Will you grow Wizards again next year, i.e. is it worth it?

Talking of business strategies Fothergills sent me some free 'Blue Belle' seed potatoes last year and they have been the most productive main crop spuds I've ever had the pleasure to grow. From about 20 seeds I got three wheel barrows full of the most beautiful large clean shiny spuds with a nice flavour. Shiny spuds are always free from disease. They look a bit like a bloke's bald head. So I'll be growing them again next year but this time I'll have to pay for them, crafty Fothergills eh?

More than likely, but have also considered sowing them as a green manure, for nitrogen fixing and then dig them in  the cauliflower patch but not sure whether the nitro- fixing happens before or after flowering? Any help on that?

Sorry no idea on that. I never bother with digging in the nitrogen as I read somewhere that it's a myth that they make the nitrogen available to later crops. I'd rather rely on digging in manure and just compost the pea and bean remains. If they contain nitrogen then it's going to be in the compost.

Quote from: squeezyjohn on October 02, 2013, 20:16:13
I have some seeds left from the packet this year's grew from - but the gigandes flowered a lot earlier and the bottom ones set beans before the first runner flower was even in bud ... I marked the pods that had formed then and I was thinking of using those ones as seeds.

I suppose there may have been other runners on the allotment site flowering that early though ... apparently it's quite hard to save 100% true seed without tripping the flowers manually and bagging the ones you want to save in gauze bags.

I never thought of doing that so thanks for the tip. I'll definitely try it.

The nitrogen fixing happens even when plants are very young.  When you sow broadbeans in modules to start them off early and then transplant, you can see whitish tiny nodules around the roots.  They look a bit like slug eggs, but they are nitrogen nodules.

You can also see them quite clearly when you pull up plants at the end of the season.  This is why the books suggest cutting broadbeans at ground level and not pulling the roots.

Quote from: galina on October 02, 2013, 21:12:06
The nitrogen fixing happens even when plants are very young.  When you sow broadbeans in modules to start them off early and then transplant, you can see whitish tiny nodules around the roots.  They look a bit like slug eggs, but they are nitrogen nodules.

You can also see them quite clearly when you pull up plants at the end of the season.  This is why the books suggest cutting broadbeans at ground level and not pulling the roots.

That's how it's generally understood. Most people crop their peas and beans and expect the nitrogen in the root system to be available in the soil for the next crop, and there's the myth.
The way I understand it is that the nitrogen is only beneficial to the soil if the plant is dug in while it's still growing so unless you specifically grow the crops to dig in while they are young it's pretty pointless just leaving the roots in the ground after you have harvested them. As I never grow peas and beans just for a green manure I don't bother with leaving the roots in the ground as there is no point.
http://www.tropicalpermaculture.com/nitrogen-fixing-bacteria.html

Very interesting Floyds!  Are you saying that farmers who use field beans as a nitrogen enriching 'rest crop' for the next year of wheat growing have got it wrong?  They certainly grow their field beans to full maturity and harvest them around now, all black, and plough the rest back into the fields.

Ditto the 3 sisters approach from the USA?  The beans are said to give nitrogen to all 3 crops and especially to the nitrogen greedy squash, the squash leaves give shade and prevent soil drying out and the corn provides bean sticks and of course corn cobs.

For either system to work well, the beans must be providing far more nitrogen than the bean plants need themselves.  But the article quoted says that the beans only provide nitrogen for themselves and leave none.  I think we would need to see actual measured data (not provided in the article which is on tropical permaculture), before we dispense with 'traditional wisdom'.

Composting plants (green mulches once they have gone dry and started to decompose) actually take a certain amount of nitrogen out of the soil for their composting.  How does that affect the nitrogen balance?   Very interesting subject - hope to read more on that for 2014. 

I forgot, I have a few new tomatoes that grow biggies. Brutus Magnus,Leadbeaters Lunker, some different strain of  Delicious and | Belmonte.

XX Jeannine

That is quite an interesting link.  But it clearly states that in Europe we have the correct bacteria for the job hence what you are saying is for the USA where they need to inoculate the beans.

Is there a need to quote huge parts of the thread which we have just read?

Do keep your suggestions going?  I am interested in the Jarrahdale pumpkin where are you sourcing your seeds?

Quote from: Digeroo on October 03, 2013, 09:41:09
That is quite an interesting link.  But it clearly states that in Europe we have the correct bacteria for the job hence what you are saying is for the USA where they need to inoculate the beans.

Is there a need to quote huge parts of the thread which we have just read?

Do keep your suggestions going?  I am interested in the Jarrahdale pumpkin where are you sourcing your seeds?

I don't think you have read the link correctly. And I'm sorry for quoting, I know reading is hard work.

Quote from: galina on October 03, 2013, 07:56:16
Very interesting Floyds!  Are you saying that farmers who use field beans as a nitrogen enriching 'rest crop' for the next year of wheat growing have got it wrong?  They certainly grow their field beans to full maturity and harvest them around now, all black, and plough the rest back into the fields.

Ditto the 3 sisters approach from the USA?  The beans are said to give nitrogen to all 3 crops and especially to the nitrogen greedy squash, the squash leaves give shade and prevent soil drying out and the corn provides bean sticks and of course corn cobs.

For either system to work well, the beans must be providing far more nitrogen than the bean plants need themselves.  But the article quoted says that the beans only provide nitrogen for themselves and leave none.  I think we would need to see actual measured data (not provided in the article which is on tropical permaculture), before we dispense with 'traditional wisdom'.

Composting plants (green mulches once they have gone dry and started to decompose) actually take a certain amount of nitrogen out of the soil for their composting.  How does that affect the nitrogen balance?   Very interesting subject - hope to read more on that for 2014.

Of course farmers will plough back the remains of the last crop, that's just standard practice.

By all means be sceptical if that's the way you feel but I've yet to read an article refuting the information. Perhaps you could find one? And preferably one that doesn't just repeat the traditional mantra.
After all if you are sceptical about the measured data it would be good to have a measured data justification of the practice don't you think?

I'm trying "Carbon"- the blackest of the black tomatoes. We already like Black Krim the best of all of our toms though it isn't nearly as productive as some others.

Trying also a golden beet: "Touchstone"

And ordering from a new (to me) seed company called Swallowtail which sells smaller quantities (and cheaper) packets than Burpee. I've been burned before ordering from a new company but this one was rated well by other gardeners on "Dave's Garden" where people post complaints.

I find Wizard excellent; good tasting, prolific, and more productive than longpods, which don't like my plot for some reason.

This is the year I would grow my lima beans  and I am trying to track down a new to me one, I love to grow them and like the challenge here , the same in the UK.

I also am growing a gold coloured beet Grannie Annie, I found an old recipe online that uses them in a cake.

XX Jeannine

I am doing a new growing experiment for 2014, based on snippets I read.  First one said that you can cut off the top two thirds of an onion and replant the bottom it will regrow.  The second one said that the lovely big red Florence onions are really a shallot.  So 'just for grins' I have planted a few to see what happens.  If it works, how thrifty would that be!  Cutting the top shows that there are 3-4 green rings inside, ie if it did grow again it would probably split into 3 or 4 'shallots'.  We  have yet to see whether these onion stumps make it through the winter at all without rotting and then grow to something meaningful in 2014. Not much lost if it doesn't work out since we ate most of these lovely onions on our tomato salads.

I would like to try Wizard field beans this autumn but Real Seeds has sold out of them. Tuckers Seeds still have them - does anyone know if they are the same?

Galina ... I have tried the same this year - but with spring onions ... and it works for me - even better than planting from seeds!

When you chop the root section of the spring onion off to prepare them for eating - put the root ends in a glass of water to freshen up - even if they've been trimmed off by the shops.  And simply plant them out the next day.  They grow new roots and sprout a whole new spring onion in about a month!

I didn't pull mine up after that ... simply snipped them off with a pair of scissors at ground level and the magic spring onion trick starts all over again!

Tried a lot of new things to me this year. Notable successes are tomatillos, bread seed poppy, mangel-wurzel (a revelation! ), elephant garlic and bulb fennel(not new but new better variety)

Will try all these again next year. New for next year are Shimonita and Ishikura bunching onions along with long black radish. I usually grow the round black radish and they are great in the winter but shall also try the long ones to compare. Will also try buck wheat.

I also have a different brussels sprout variety and spring hero cabbage.

Quote from: Jeannine on October 04, 2013, 00:27:21

I also am growing a gold coloured beet Grannie Annie, I found an old recipe online that uses them in a cake.

Let us know how the cake tastes! But I shouldn't be looking for yet another reason to eat cake

Quote from: Floyds on October 02, 2013, 22:50:41

That's how it's generally understood. Most people crop their peas and beans and expect the nitrogen in the root system to be available in the soil for the next crop, and there's the myth.

I don't think it is a complete myth.  It is true that the majority of nitrogen that is fixed goes to seed production but there is a large caveat.
During the growing process amounts of N are leaked from the roots into the soil which is then available for subsequent crops..
See here for some info - I don't have much time at present to find more up to date data but you can clearly see in figure 4 that cereal crops that follow grain legumes require less N fertilizer..

Quote from: BarriedaleNick on October 04, 2013, 13:01:16

Quote from: Floyds on October 02, 2013, 22:50:41

That's how it's generally understood. Most people crop their peas and beans and expect the nitrogen in the root system to be available in the soil for the next crop, and there's the myth.

I don't think it is a complete myth.  It is true that the majority of nitrogen that is fixed goes to seed production but there is a large caveat.
During the growing process amounts of N are leaked from the roots into the soil which is then available for subsequent crops..
See here for some info - I don't have much time at present to find more up to date data but you can clearly see in figure 4 that cereal crops that follow grain legumes require less N fertilizer..

Thanks for the link, much appreciated. However all the information just substantiates that it is pointless digging in legume roots (or leaving them in the ground) expecting the nitrogen that was in the plant to be available for the next crop. It isn't, or rather some of it is already there.
The article states that the nitrogen leaks into the soil while the plant is growing so by the time you have harvested your peas or beans the nitrogen is either in the crop or some has leached into the soil leaving the roots pretty dead and useless. So the myth of digging in pea and bean roots for the next crop is just that.

In other words a farmer could grow legumes to supply nitrogen for his following crop, harvest the legumes plough the land and remove all the roots and still have the same result as leaving the roots in. Alternatively he could grow legumes as a green manure plough the nitrogen in and sacrifice the crop, that way he'd get more nitrogen. That is ancellsfarmer's plan but what he was asking is at what stage the nitrogen is available in the plant for digging in and on that I don't have a clue.  But hey what a read! And reading is hard work! 

Not really - it does say most, but not all, of the nitrogen is taken up with seed production.  A plant can only use so much nitrogen.  It doesn't say there is none - it doesn't say dead and useless.  Also leaving the roots and digging them in means you are not removing valuable organic matter from the soil and really, who would go to the trouble to dig the roots out and dispose of them - much better left in the soil.
Anyway I think these look interesting for next year - 2.69 for 6 seeds is ok if it produces 25 fruit a plant but they look good for a roast dinner.