Allotments 4 All

Hi everyone
I have always believed ( because gardening gurus have said in books ) that you shouldn't put muck on the soil you are preparing for cabbages if you are going to lime them --- something to do with all the goodness 'evaporating'. Although this doesn't make much sense to me I have faithfully adhered to this and relied on copious muck spreading from the crop before and/or preferably following them on from legumes. We need lots of lime as we have clubroot and I find that if I pot the cabbages on a few times in very limey compost before transplanting them they do o.k. but as we have very sandy soil -- instinct tells me to put loads more muck round them/under them???? I would also like to try cauliflowers this year and they would need tons of muck surely??????

The Lime reacts with the muck to produce ammonia, which isn't good for human or plants. I always muck heavily for brassicas as they are greedy crops, but I have no problem with clubroot here and the soil is clay...  :-\

i have no experience with these matters but what about applying the muck in the autumn and liming at planting time, i would think this should give the muck plenty of time to be Incorporated into the soil so as to prevent it reacting with the lime when it is later applied.

as well i think most people also opt for mucking the ground for early potatoes which are then followed by brassicus and lime.

others more experience than i will certainly clarify things :).

Would it help if I put pelleted chicken manure down or would this still react with the lime? ::)

we follow our beans with brassicas, we use fish, blood and bone,raked in,  then lime in the planting hole.
there is clubroot on our site, thankfully not on our plot

I think you may find that with land  that has club root you may be able to grow somewhat  decent cabbages but caulies may be more of a struggle..
Here is my take on why you are managing to grow cabbage there .
I don't think that your growing your plants in limy compost is the reason you are growing cabbage OK. I think it is because you are potting the cabbage plants on therefore you are creating a more vigorous plant with a longer stalk/stem on them .
So when they are set out in your garden they are set deeper and new roots appear on the stalk under the ground . Although I presume the plants are  still affected by club root ( is this the case?) they have enough root system to get nutrients to them so they grow. some what.
With caulies they need growing fast any check in their growth tends to make em put on a little curd and bolt. Which I think they would tend  to do in land with club root.
But I could be totally wrong.    If there are no nodules on your cabbage roots when you lift them either you ain't got clubroot any more or your method with growing them in limy compost works.  :)
Se what others think about it ..

.

   

I never seem to have problems with any of the brassicas this is how I do it;

In Autumn;

http://www.thegardenersalmanac.co.uk/Slide%20Shows/Soil%20preparation%20ss/soil%20preparation%20ss.html


In Spring/Summer;

http://www.thegardenersalmanac.co.uk/Data/Brassica%20planting/brassica%20planting.html

This is what I get;











So I must be doing something right!

Deep sulk here now Tee Gee  ;D

Crumbs. Thats mighty impressive.  :o I wonder what soil you have , clay, acid?
I was glad I got anything off my patch which has serious clubroot probs -- when I dig the cabbages up they have quite a few swollen roots but I do pot them on until they are quite large before planting them out and I thought it was lime that was helping them to resist clubroot. I understand now that it's because they have a fairly good root system.
The thought of digging yet more trenches fills me with dread -- what with potatoes and beans etc and because our soil is so sandy I tend to leave a lot of the muck on top as it washes down so quickly and the cabbage roots don't seem to go down very deep -- only about a spades depth but if I still put lime in the pots ( and at the bottom of the large planting hole) but the muck on top when I've planted them, shouldn't that be ok as they wont be in contact with each other?.
Think I may pass on the cauliflowers  :(

I would have thought them a non-starter on sand... but then I insist on growing carrots on clay...  ::)

Ah now carrots are another problem.
Because of the carrot fly they have to be covered but we have marestail to die for and its such a bind weeding so I just let the marestail carry on growing underneath the cover. It does look a bit of a mess but I reckon that water is brought up by this weed.

QuoteI wonder what soil you have , clay, acid?

I have quite light soil, I can actually sink my spade nearly a spit deep without the aid of my foot.

I have had one of my plots for fifteen years and the other seven and in each of these years I have put a full load of farmyard into them each year just to improve the soil stucture.

Now my soil is quite loamy! but I had to put in a lot of hard work to get there.

QuoteThe thought of digging yet more trenches fills me with dread --

I'm sorry but the only reply I can give to this statement is; you are always going to have problems if you dont improve your soil. 

I'm sure you have heard the expression; the secret is in the soil!

Quoteour soil is so sandy I tend to leave a lot of the muck on top as it washes down so quickly and the cabbage roots don't seem to go down very deep -- only about a spades depth

Personally I think you are tackling your problem in the wrong manner!

As I see it mulching does not improve the soil it just keeps it moist, the reason your cabbage roots don't go down is; it is easier and more nutritious for them to grow in the mulch.

My soil is only a spade (spit) deep as well and yet I have very little problems.

Regarding club root;

Quotebut if I still put lime in the pots

Club root is a 'soil borne' disease so I would say this is wrong for a couple of reasons;

The compost is sterile (or should be) so why treat it for 'club root'?

Similarly new plants/seedlings do not suffer from club root so why treat for it?

I think by adding lime to the compost at the seedlings stage you could cause an imbalance in the nutrients a plant requires at this stage

QuoteI understand now that it's because they have a fairly good root system.

This is quite true but only if the seedlings are allowed to grow properly and as I have said lime at this stage might not allow this!

Quote( and at the bottom of the large planting hole)

I know a lot of people subscribe to this method but I don't for the following reason/s

As I see it; having brought the plant on in a pot gives this gives it its first defence against club root which is good.

To put lime in the hole to my mind does not do much good because of gravity ie the lime is washed downwards but new plant roots grow more or less horizontal so this lime is below the new roots.

This is why I put it on top so that the lime is washed onto and through the new root system as they grow, which to my mind gives better protection.

As I have mentioned club root is a soil borne disease so if you do not improve the quality of the soil then club root will always remain in the soil but with good soil maintenance and rotation you will eventually beat 'club root' I have!

QuoteThink I may pass on the cauliflowers

I guess you have heard that caulis won't grow on light sandy soil!

They will with the correct treatment and to my mind that means; not treading the soil around the plant! which I know is contrary to many peoples beliefs.

I find by not treading/firming the plants are better because they get a huge flat root ball rather than one where the roots go downwards i.e.  it is easier to go downwards rather than go sideways into compacted soil.

Think about it we both have shallow soil so why encourage roots to go down a limited depth? when they have loads of space to go side ways.

Now this might not be the scientific way of going about things but by hell it works!

PS I hope you don't take my reply too personally! its just I felt I had to give an explanation (to all those who may read my reply) as to why I do things my way as opposed to the way of others...................its simply because..............it works!!

T G
Thats fantastic, really

You read stuff in books and watch gardeners on the tele but they all have different views. You seem to have the same kind of soil as mine and if digging the muck in can help me grow cabbages like yours then I will give that a try. The plot was unused for about 7 years before I took it on 4 years ago. It was in a bit of a state-- brambles and self sown plum trees as well as all the broken glass and twisted chicken wire under miles of carpet and I have applied manure , grass cuttings over newspaper ( which the potatoes seem to like) , even seaweed brought back from holiday and pelleted chicken manure -- anything I can get hold of.  I have thankfully rediscovered my spade for digging, after forking out all the compacted couch grass roots and marestail.
I had never thought that liming the compost in the pots would have an adverse affect on the young plants. For some reason I thought it would make them stronger and more able to resist the clubroot. I will try it differently this year and lime the top only after planting. The photos are a great help.

HI Ciderself, Don't change what is working for you, if your getting decent cabbage continue to do it as you have been doing ..
The only reason I posted and explained what I thought was happening, was that you were asking if anyone thought that  caulies would grow on land affected with club root..
Gardening is a big learning curve with things happening that theoretically they shouldn't ..
If I were you I would get a cheap pkt of all year round caulies and grow em as you have your cabbage, plant a few outand see what happens.. Maybe you will learn us all something ... :)

QuoteGardening is a big learning curve with things happening that theoretically they shouldn't ..
If I were you I would get a cheap pkt of all year round caulies and grow em as you have your cabbage,

I agree with what you say growmore but I wouldn't go the cheap packet route (have done in the past and failed miserably.)

I only use F1's but only sow about 10-20% more seed than I need e.g if I need 20 I usually sow 25. This way a packet of seed lasts me a few years.

Then I have the advantage of getting discounted seeds so buying F1's costs about the same as standard varieties at a retailers.

As you say ; a learning curve and this is what I learned (the hard way)a number of years ago.

As always brilliant advice guys. Thank you
I've finally realised why the F1 seeds are so expensive as that was the best psb and brussels I grew. Even the pigeons thought so.
I had super results with some very cheap lettuce seeds ;D but I am trying to sow just a few seeds of everything now as I hate throwing seedlings away and haven't got acres of ground to fill. Thats the theory anyway -- there's still  always surplus for giving away.

Just been reading up on clubroot and came across a fertilizer called  Perlka which claims to be good against clubroot.....does anyone know anyone who as used it and what results they have had with it ?

Info on Perlka was requested on A4all March 2006.

Have just looked up the main ingredient on wiki and found this ----

"Cyanamide is also used to treat alcoholism in Japan, Europe and U.S.A" multipurpose or what :o

but more relevant

"Calcium cyanamide or CaCN2 is a calcium compound used as fertiliser,[1] first synthesized in 1898 by Adolph Frank and Nikodem Caro.[2] It is formed when calcium carbide reacts with nitrogen. It is commercially known as Nitrolim."

"Calcium cyanamide (NITROLIM, calcium carbimide, cyanamide) is a blackish-grey, shiny powder used in agriculture as a fertilizer, herbicide, pesticide and a defoliant for cotton plants. It is also used in steel hardening and as a desulphurizer in the iron and steel industry. In industry, calcium cyanamide is used for the manufacture of calcium cyanide and dicyandiamide, the raw material for melamine."

It doesn't sound very good for organic allotmenteers?

TeeGee said" I only use F1's but only sow about 10-20% more seed than I need e.g if I need  20 I usually sow 25. This way a packet of seed lasts me a few years."
If I were only to use F1's it would take me a season to trawl through the seed catalogues trying to find alteranatives for the crops I grow successfully from the none F1 seeds  which I can obtain year after year .
How many times do you see F1's that you grow successfully for a year or so then all of a sudden they are no longer available ..
As for cheap seeds not being up to the job .I think you may find that the seeds you pay more for in the fancy photo enhanced packets may well have  originally come from the same seed banks as your cheaper none fancy packet ones.
I have had good crops from Netto's 18p a packet seeds. :D
Long may they continue.

Quote"Calcium cyanamide or CaCN2 is a calcium compound

I'm no chemist but lime is also a calcium compound ???

Could this be another money making con at the expence of the gardener  ??? ???

Sorry growmore if I have mislead you, I was not advocating that people including myself should use F1's in preference to standard seeds.

I respect what you say about some F1's going out of fashion quite quickly but I think this is down to finance matters as well.

I have noticed that quite often something that sells as 'NEW' in a catalogue (usually at an increased price) takes off at the expense of the ones we have used in the past, so change is part of the sales ploy.

Back to F1's;

I am very much a 'value for money man' so I buy what I get best results from and in the case of brassicas I find I get this with F1's. So far as other things are concerned I tend to buy the cheapest.

So in my opinion there is a lot going for what both of us do and that is .......grow what you find best!