Allotments 4 All

Hi, I have been thinking a lot lately about all the stuff that we buy that is imported. Everything from food to cars. I often wonder about the people who make them and how much/little they are paid, their ages etc.

We hear about child labour,sweat shops,and the like and I would like to know  what I can do to actually educate myself about these in order to avoid adding to the situation.

The other day I bought some magnifying glasses. Small glasses in a case along with a rather nice pen, all this for £1. I had to ask myself how on earth this could be done.

Often I buy what is there without thinking much about it. I have just looked at clothes labels which doesn't help.

I don't want reams of horror stories, but is there  a list or site that gives information of places to avoid or ????

I don't want to be responsible for some family having no food if they don't get paid but...

What is the answer, has anyone else gone this route.

XX Jeannine

The answer goes back to1979 when Thatcher screwed this country

Its difficult isnt it... I think you have to be very careful of propaganda on both sides... M & S are buggers for child/slave labour -= yet they claim to have stopped all that... do we believe them?

I have been buying Oilily for years, made in holland... now the latest dress i bought from there was made in India!!!! So ummm not sure my conscience is clear to be honest!

It's really hard jeannine. As you say, developing countries are at least getting something and some work. We have to be careful what we boycott as it is rarely the big companies that suffer, only the workers.
You might find useful info on the Amnesty site, there are a few others that i can't bring to mind but will have a mooch about the internet and see.
For me it's not solely about exploitation. I feel that clothes and stuff shouldn't be virtually free and totally throwaway. I want my children to respect their possessions and property in general.
They should know that clothes cost money and need looking after to keep them nice. I don't exactly want to go back to the days of making their clothes from my old ones but you know what i mean!
All you can do is your best to remain aware of the problem, you can really tie yourself up in knots with it all though.  ::)

The only way not to fuel exploitation is to buy direct from the person who made or grew whatever it is and to pay a fair price.
  This doesn't and can't happen much in our society and if it did people would have to seriously revise their ideas on lifestyle. How can food, clothes,magnifying glasses be so cheap without people being exploited?
  I'm not party political or anything but I know all working people all over the world are exploited, in some places it's just a bit more obvious than others.
  What's the answer? I'd like to say a revolution but I don't think they work and they're a bit too dramatic as well aren't they.
  Like emmy 1978 said you should try to respect and look after your stuff and not buy what you don't need. It's old-fashioned and Puritan-like in a way but then so is growing vegetables in a lot of people's eyes.
  You can't worry too much about developing countries.They want them to develop but what's gonna happen when they do as regards pollution etc?  And is it good to send a kid up your chimney so it can earn a wage?
  I wish I never replied now it's all quite depressing when you think about it.
 
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If you think about it in another way, if you stopped buying from developing countries altogether, those people are going to be out of their jobs. :( Not every factory overseas exploits its workers, just *some* of them do. Just wish there was a place that listed all the factories that used child labour, had horrible working conditions etc. - how will we ever know for sure?? However, low pay in UK terms does not mean low pay in that country - not at all!!! Why this figure is always used in the media really puzzles me. When I worked in the Far East as a professional engineer, I earned 300 pounds a month... and that was a fairly comfortable sum for someone to live on although it may sound shocking to other professional engineers in the UK. 1 pound goes a LOT further in many developing countries than it does in the West. You can eat quite well on just 50p. Sooo, while I won't dispute that many workers are underpaid in these countries, comparing it with UK currency just doesn't make much sense unless you are familiar with the cost of living in that country.

I would not blame 'globalisation' as the primary evil either... multinational companies out in the Far East are often the better companies to work for, i.e they don't work you 6.5 days a week (which is the norm even in fairly developed Asian countries), give you more benefits and holidays, and generally there is more consciousness about health+safety, which is not often true of 'local' companies.

Ultimately, factories are moving out east because labour is cheap, and people want cheap stuff! The West wants all this stuff so they ship all their manufacturing bases overseas (and also all the pollution). There are almost no exceptions now?? So we're all complicit in the exploitation of others, in one way or another. :(

vw

I don't know vw... i think globalisation is the cause!  Look at what mcdonalds and cocacola has done across the world - globalisation at its best!

I don't think it's clear cut. Developing countries want foreign investment because its the only way they can lift their people out of poverty. For every McDonalds there are lots of other companies who do a lot of good for the local economy. We can't tar every multinational with the same brush.

Besides, you know who I think is the biggest evil? British American Tobacco...  :P

vw

Ooo this topic could go on forever couldnt it...but unfortunately i think there is little we can do... I even heard a debate on Radio 4 about Fair Trade and how it isn't good for the fair trade farmers! 

Ok for some reason I can't modify the previous post I made... please ignore, I don't want to stir up any controversy by naming companies that annoy me.  ;)

OliveOil, I've heard that too about FairTrade. It's all very complex, nothing is black and white.

All our politicians have double standards when it comes to third world aid and alleviating poverty worldwide. People are only willing to give handouts insofar as it doesn't affect their own lifestyles too adversely, sadly. :(

Back to gardening, ho hum... ;)

vw

Missed the R4 debate about Fair Trade. How is it not good for Fair Trade farmers?

I would buy items from third world country's as it gives the natives employment, no work= no unemployment benefits, my wife worked for Seagate an  American hard drive factory in Bangkok for £100.00 per month before we married, and still sent some money home to the family.

It was to do with some of the farms/plantations not providing the minimum living conditions for fair trade or passing back suitable amounts to a works council for re-distribution for the welfare of the workers.

They found 4 not doing what they promised ( but I've no idea out of how many or how many they looked at that were good guys.......) & found that the Fair Trade org hadn't inspected them in years to check.  But then again, I assume the Fair Trade org has to skim some money from the workers to fund their org & more inspections means more cost  yada yada yada.

Tricky one again.

Quote from: veggiewomble on June 28, 2007, 12:29:18
Ok for some reason I can't modify the previous post I made... please ignore, I don't want to stir up any controversy by naming companies that annoy me.  ;)

OliveOil, I've heard that too about FairTrade. It's all very complex, nothing is black and white.

All our politicians have double standards when it comes to third world aid and alleviating poverty worldwide. People are only willing to give handouts insofar as it doesn't affect their own lifestyles too adversely, sadly. :(

Back to gardening, ho hum... ;)

vw

Don't you feel about your previous posts, this has been a lively discussion where we are allowed to get heated if we want to....

As for the tobacco companies - as a nicotine addict - I agree with you... banning smoking here there and everywhere is fine but bloody ban selling the stuff and save our kids from being hooked on it I say.  If i couldnt buy it in the first place i wouldnt have started smoking!  I know other drugs are a problem in our society but if we could all buy heroin from the corner shop, im sure there would be a million more problems in the world.

OliveOil, OK, I just didn't want to offend anyone. :D

Its about the globalisation issue that someone brought up... tobacco companies are now heading to places like Vietnam and China where there isn't as much awareness and education about the dangers of smoking...  In the West, that much is known and taking it up is seen as an 'informed choice'. Many countries in Asia have banned explicit tobacco advertising so they're moving into 'new markets' and creating millions of new addicts in developing nations, many of them underaged.

And many cigarette companies have even got around the ban by selling 'glamour' products such as belts, pens, ties etc. and associating smoking with a glamorous yuppie lifestyle. I've seen these TV ads myself in Asia, not sure if they're still allowed at present but they were certainly still showing them in the 80s and 90s. I think in many ways this is far more insiduous than McDonalds, which tends to get bashed for everything... they're no angels but I think there hasn't been near enough focus on tobacco companies and what they're doing.

I guess its all the more pertinent to me because my grandfather was a chain smoker - because 'everyone smoked in those days' - and he died horribly in his 60's of smoking-related emphysema. :(

vw

I know exactly what you mean... look at nestle in the globalisation debate... say they no longer market baby milk to african countries yet they do... encourage them that tinned milk is better when the poor mothers can hardly feed themselves let alone buy baby milk.  I know nestle is boycotted by many university student unions across the country.

went to the opticians today, ray needed glasses..I read an article , can't remember which paper
britain pays umpteen billion to eu
they subsidise greek tobacco growers with umpteen million
the stuff's that cack, europeans can't smoke it so they send it to africa !!!!!!!!  ??? ??? ??? ??? ???
all this was from an article, not from me  :(

I agree this is a very complex issue.  I too question the wages of the people who make very cheap things  - like clothes from Primark, but then I wonder how much the people who make clothes for Debenhams get paid.  Do the workers get more or do the more upmarket  stores make more money per item? 

My original question when I started this post was to hear if anyone had learned about specific places or companies that we should avoid.I wanted to know of there was a list published ? Does anyone know

Sorry for swerving this thread off-topic. I don't think I know of any website that publishes a list, I imagine there would be all sorts of legal issues with that, but the closest thing I can think of is http://www.corporatewatch.org.uk - they have something like a small list of companies there, their alleged 'corporate crimes' and so on. Not sure if this is what you're looking for though.

vw