Allotments 4 All

I think that the term organic has just got over used and can mean different things to different people.  Lets be honest a lot of people, myself included, have an allotment as a hobby and if  every year all my crops got eaten by insects, destroyed by disease or I lost everything because of a drought then I probably would resort to use of appropriate 'non organic' methods.  Otherwise it becomes less of an enjoyable pastime and more of a backbreaking chore and frankly I am not trying to save the world with my allotment - just to enjoy it.  ;D

Quote from: northener on July 08, 2005, 16:34:38
I think we've had a good debate, can't see where youv'e been shut. Like Derbex says organic ways are always discussed on here.

iit was on the weeb site suggestion. i thought it would be a good idea to have an organic section. at the moment we talking via basic  stuff. i mean they is a pumkins section, i thought to  growt "organic" would diserve a little door. \so far around 300 people open this page, i still dont know who growth minimum SA.
i can see a lots are not organic, and some  try, and want to do more..i think an organic section would help in filing info.

[quote author=Dominique etc... However, I do use tap water - but what else could I do?  :-[ (  I have 2 water butts on the allotment, both with only 1inch of rain water in them....)
Tonight I have spread the black fly on my beans with soapy water (pure soap flakes) - is that 'organic'?  I feel quite lost now.   ::)
D

Quote

dont panic, the tape water is ok everybody use it. i have an oppotunity for the last 8 years to farm 1 acre of land with no tape water.i trust the english weather,and the timing of my seeding.
one acre is a minimum i think to create a biodiversity who allowed the controle of pest,more efficeintly. the import of tape water,will change all of it. 
. you sounded pretty organic yourself,
maby 10 of you would make an acre, then you can try,to reduce tape water. dont forget, "the rain tell you,when the snail are coming".

Quote from: northener on July 07, 2005, 20:10:54
Nice. Where do you buy soap flakes?

NL, Supermarkets have them (where the washing powders are)

This thread is going the way of many in mixed groups and detailed (nit picking) listings of what is and is not orgnaic is not helpful (in fact it becomes devisive)

The aim of organic gardening is to protect the environment and produce food that is as safe as possible to eat. The reason HDRA and SA allow what some might call "non organic" items to be used is that they meet those criteria and they are qualified by the circumstances in which they are "acceptable" - the term acknowledging that they are not ideal but then most of life isn't ideal.

I am against a separate strand for "organic" as:

a. you can't define the term (as is obvious from the previous discussion0
b. it separates out techniques - one of the strengths of the board is that questions very often produce multiple types of answer - the reader can then select the one he/she is most comfortable with.

So could I humbly suggest we stop trying to split hairs and return the norm of sharing our very wide range of experiences in a friendly and non-divisive manner?

Phil

 no bitching, just man to man talk.{sometime man to women}
i still dont know if any body  think it could pass a SA test,
that all i want to know for the moment,espesialy for londonner,or city grower.

QuoteI am against a separate strand for "organic" as:

a. you can't define the term (as is obvious from the previous discussion0
b. it separates out techniques - one of the strengths of the board is that questions very often produce multiple types of answer - the reader can then select the one he/she is most comfortable with.

Totally agree Phil. This site is open to all techniques and opinions, and a large majority (see poll) are organic anyway.

Personally I'm not - through necessity, as i'd never manage to grow anything, i've found. I only use minimum non-rganic intrusions I can get away with, and its got to be better than supermarket stuff anyway - certainly tastes it!!

You're obviously asking us the same question quite a lot LF.
Mass PMs over the weekend, as well access to the poll that had already taken place on the site, which gives you the answer, and then the questions here again - I know it may be of personal interest (obviously) but are you doing some kind of 'official' research?
Don't ask for a particular reason - just interested (i.e. nosey!).

From having 'accredited as organic' experience I think  Phil Cooper hit the nail on the head in that organic does not mean pesticide free (which to the uninitiated refers to anything applied to control pests or weeds including natural substances such as garlic oil). 

Instead it simply means that every effort has been made to protect the environment and the food from uneccessary contamination.  So are we all organic -probably!   Do we all use pesticides - probably!  Does it matter - NO!

.....and interestingly even the Soil Association will allow use of pesticides!

So, please if you feel lost or uncertain Dominique don't be.  If you are happy carry on as you are.   If you decide you are are organic so be it and note that tap-water has little to do with it.

Quote from: Dawn on July 11, 2005, 15:46:03
Don't ask for a particular reason - just interested (i.e. nosey!).

i try  to found oranic grower who could share the cost of SA certification. we have to be 5 miles radius of each other.

I doubt I could go for certification, if only because of the proximity of other allotment holders who do spray. Personally I consider the Soil Association only as guidelines. If they can allow something one year and disapprove the next then it's hardly absolute. In the real world you do sometimes have to make a choice between having a crop and using something you'd prefer not to ( i.e bordeaux). As I've said earlier, people's motivations and principles extend from those who don't use pesticides unless they have to ( unlike conventional growers who may spray as a preventative ) right through to those who won't use bought in compost because of the transport issue. Organic principles extend right the way through to caring about the global environment but that's not what motivates most gardeners I suspect. Of course you've also got vegan organic gardeners who won't use manure.

I think most people on the forum grow for personal consumption and enjoyment so being certified wouldn't really be an issue.  Do you intend to sell produce labeled as organic Londonfarming? 

I would think it would be impossible as an allotment holder to isolate yourself totally from other non organic lottie holders; our plots are too closely intertwined. As I mentioned earlier, however good my intentions are, and I do what I can to be organic, being at the bottom of a sloping aisle of other allotments I am bound to get all sorts of stuff washing down when it rains.  So that is totally out of my control, it is just the way the land runs. You would have to enforce it onto the whole plot and a lot of people at my Site would be very resistant unfortunately. busy_lizzie

From what i understand, most sites don't allow growing for commercial purposes anyway - or am I mistaken?

Absolutely right Dawn.  Unless you are selling for the benefit of your allotment association or charity it is against the rules. busy_lizzie

Quote from: Mubgrub on July 12, 2005, 13:17:11

  Do you intend to sell produce labeled as organic Londonfarming? 

that the idea,

Much good thinking there?

As amateurs, we like to feel that our produce can be chomped off the plant by our children without the need for washing or peeling.

Many small producers, however clean their produce, cannot afford to be certified.

How long has any land been everything free before it can honestly grow certified 'organic' produce?

If growers are encouraged to use less nasties, then that is a step in the right direction?

We use no chemical sprays but we do use some artificial fertilisers. because that's not going to shorten our lives?

etc

Not sure if its rhetoric or not Tim but if I remember correctly the conversion time for accreditation is 3 years.  East Anglia makes a mockery of even that though given that you can still find traces of DDT in the soil there!

Quote from: djbrenton on July 12, 2005, 09:15:11
. Personally I consider the Soil Association only as guidelines.

same here,
but  from the consumer point of view it represent something  organic. so better.

Posted by: londonfarming  Posted on: Today at 22:32:52 
Insert Quote 
Quote from: djbrenton on Today at 09:14:49
. Personally I consider the Soil Association only as guidelines.
same here,
but  from the consumer point of view it represent something  organic. so better. 


I have to disagree with that.  A number of organic veg fail to sell for people like the idea but do not want to pay the extra.  If they truly thought better it would sell.  Specific examples:  lettuce, cabbage, carrot, potato.  All generally fail.  Also organic veg market only growing at around 3% against an average of 12% for conventional.  So I refer back to earlier comments on the validity of being precious about organic attainment.

I try to be as organic as possible, but I don't bother with rules or certification, which is often irrational or unattainable. For instance, organic honey rules are supersensitive about possible contamination from outside the hive; you have to be at least six miles from anyone using sprays, making it impossible to produce organic honey in the UK. At the same time, you're allowed to use chemicals inside the hive which are so powerful they have a devastating effect on the bees as they accumulate in the wax. As far as I'm concerned that's a nonsense.