Need to pick your brains, please!

[Grandma]

At last - I'm going to have a wildlife pond in my garden! I'm really excited but need all the advice I can get from you experts, please. Always easier to do things right first time than try and correct mistakes afterwards.

It's going to be quite small (approx. 6 - 7' long) and, if possible, a 'natural-looking', irregular shape (max 2½ - 3' wide). I'd like it to have a deep end (maybe 2 - 2½'?) with a ledge for plants - then gradually shallowing up to ground level at the other end - so that 'things'  :) can get in and out easily.

Hopefully it will be started around the middle of this month so any help and advice you can offer will be very much appreciated. Thank you!

[Grandma]

[Palustris]

The depth should be at least 3 feet if possible or even more. This gives a reservoire of cool water for animals in Summer. Plant cover should be about a third to half of the water and no fish!

[jjt]

I think you should keep the shape simple, an oval or whatever. If you try and be too fiddly you make hard work and end up wasting water space and liner. Have as much planting shelf as you can, at least one end and side's worth and the plants will give you the natural shape.
   2 feet deep is plenty in my opinion. If you're limited as to width you don't want to go too deep anyway or you'll have no shelf space left.
   Think about how you're going to edge it, if you can properly hide the liner it's much better.
   Check the weather forecast and if there's a dry spell then crack on. When a big hole fills up with water before the liner's in, mess and mud start winning the battle. It happened to me last year. I expect it was quite funny to watch.

[ninnyscrops]

Echoing Palustris here Grandma, my pond's 3' deep, helps with the winter freezes even in our part of Sussex, as the fish go down deep when it's cold.

[GrannieAnnie]

We've dug 3 ponds and each time wished we'd made them bigger. Our best decision was placing it where it is easily viewed from inside the house. It is the first place we check every morning. It has made the yard so much more interesting and lively, reflects the sky so brings a sparkle to the garden and reflects up into the tree at its banks and attracts all sorts of small animals (plus a giant Great Blue Heron). Fun after a snow to see all the animal tracks(fox, possum, groundhog, raccoon). Mine is hip deep in the deepest area where the goldfish hide come winter. A little heater turns on and keeps the ice open in an 8 inch area when it gets cold enough to let the decomposition gases out so the fish and frogs over-winter safely. My main mistake was trying some sloped edge like a beach with pea gravel going into it for a more natural look but it is unstable. I'll post a pix if I can figure out how...

[Baaaaaaaa]

I read somewhere, that if its a pond with fish in it, there should be at least a third of the pond in shade during a hot summers day to prevent the fish from boiling.

Is this fact or fish-on ?

[ninnyscrops]

Will admit my three boys hide under the big lily leaves on hot summer days :), also have a large conifer that shades the pond a tad so make sure they have somewhere to keep cool.

[GrannieAnnie]

I read somewhere, that if its a pond with fish in it, there should be at least a third of the pond in shade during a hot summers day to prevent the fish from boiling.

Is this fact or fish-on ?

If the water is deep enough and if water lilies cover a goodly part of the pond it seems to work okay despite summer temps getting sometimes to 100F. But the more sun, the more algae problem so I positioned mine partly under a Japanese Maple that shades it from the early morning sun. My pond is in the sun from about 11AM to maybe 4:30PM and has lilies covering about a third, maybe less. Goldfish do fine and procreate and live through a cold winter because the depth in the deepest part goes past the frost line.  I decided not to have a filter system- instead bought a bale of barley straw and make pouches of it in nylons  which emits an algaecide when the water reaches about 70 degrees F. That plus a fountain that aerates well through a basket of lava rock (this I think was very important for trapping junk and keeping things out of the pump) has kept the algae at bay except in early Spring when string algae appears for awhile. We've been amazed how carefree this pond has been. I thought it might have impossible problems but it has been functioning 7 years now very easily. I don't drain it, just scoop out leaves from time to time. Of course it looks like pond water- clear-ish (not sparkling clear like ponds with filtering systems) but the bottom looks muddy which is okay with me. The liner is black rubber. I'd recommend not having any slope to the bottom- mine is and walking in it is very tricky ::)

[star]

Hi Grandma....... ;)

Im in the process of doing my pond too, I have now got a liner YAY...!!

I would love to have a compare type thing if its ok with you. Mine will be in partial shade in summer. But full shade in winter. I have just moved a Mexican Orange Blossom to make more room for the pond (less dense shade as well now)

I know what you mean by making sure everything is right before you start.....very hard to rectify once its done.
Is yours a wildlife or fish pond? Forgive me, I forgot what your post said now. I just want a natural wildlife pond, so no fishees for me. I will take some pics tomorrow....I would love to see yours too

[GrannieAnnie]

We have a wildlife pond WITH goldfish without any problem. We put in goldfish to eat the mosquito larvae. We do NOT feed the fish, and they do just fine on the insects they catch. We bought only 5 "feeder size" goldfish hoping the blue heron would not be interested in eating small ones and they reproduced to 21. Some brown fish showed up somehow- we never stocked them. Frogs showed up though there is no nearby pond or stream. Toads arrived, can be deafening at night during courting weeks, and they also lay eggs in the pond. Newts, the occasional water/garter snake, dragon flies and butterflies and birds of course though the pump keeps some away I'm sure. The braver ones like robins will bathe.http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y253/nonrancher/IMG_0125-1.jpg

[wetandcold]

Just finished reading a great wildlife gardening book - No Nettles Required (by Ken Thomson). Based on several surveys they found that ANY pond is better for wildlife than none at all. Depth, size etc. are not important as long as it doesn't dry out. One key point - although fish won't devastate a pond's wildlife the ponds they surveyed without fish had much more variety and greater numbers of other pond dwellers!

Makes sense to me - just get digging. The newts will thank you for it!

[star]

Sounds like a good book WnC, I will see if I can find it in the library ;)

GrannieAnnie, your frog is so gorgeous (I love all frogs, toads and non fluffies). I know a few people who have fish in ponds and they do ok as natural ponds. I just dont particularly want fish.

My pond will only be small,  so definatly no room for fish.

[GrannieAnnie]

GrannieAnnie, your frog is so gorgeous (I love all frogs, toads and non fluffies). I know a few people who have fish in ponds and they do ok as natural ponds. I just dont particularly want fish.

My pond will only be small,  so definatly no room for fish.

One thing we heard about tadpoles which I guess is true or we'd be over-run with frogs: our pond surface around the edges is literally covered with tadpoles- they get bigger and then magically all disappear. We understand that they start devouring each other and the few that eat all the others are the only survivors out of thousands!
One bird that hangs around and catches frogs in our pond is a Barred Owl. I saw him attack once but fumbled the camera. The great blue heron also favors them but there are plenty of frogs to go around. I can't wait to hear how you like your pond. I'm sure you'll be delighted to see all the life that appears.

[hoonteo]

I want a pond too, but there's no shade where I'm going to put it. Any ideas?

[star]

You can create shade with water lillies and plant something a little taller on the side that gets most sun.

That would be my plan anyway, doesn't mean its right though.

I have a question too, my hubby wants to put some sticklebacks in. How good an idea is that, I know they are found naturally, but will they overrun the pond in time or keep limits to manageable levels themselves? ???

[GrannieAnnie]

Yes, as Star said, just cover the surface with lots of water lilies. Ours are perennial and stay in the deep part of the pond all winter in zone 6/7.  Just make sure if you don't want to take them out and store them inside during the winter that you buy the right type. Some of the prettiest colored ones are not winter-hardy.
Some people put in a black dye to ponds without shade. Saw that at Longwood Gardens which is world renown.

[froglets]

Woohoo,  just went out abd bought my pond liner for my wildlife pond today - or should I say puddle compared to yours - making sure it is 18" deep in the middle, the total size of liner I needed was 2m x 2.5!

I know you're not supposed to share beasties an oxegenators in an ideal world, but I'm going to "borrow some oxegenators and snails from a healthy pond down the road and possibly a jam jar of frog spawn.  I'm lookimg forward to the plant fair I go to in May as there is usually a specialist nursery there & I can ask for help on plants - the only shade it will get at the moment is from a waist high fence right next to it.  I intend to have boggy edges, I have discovered that I love plants that like free draining soil that stays moist all year.  Last years project was to create a damp area as I garden in full sun on sand.  Having said that, I have lobelia cardinalis, hemorocalis,  and a few other plants sold for moist areas thriving in my main garden.

The pond at OH's has at least 3 female newts full of eggs, doubt I'll be that lucky as his garden is in shade all year round and next to a wildlife sanctuary so has lots of damp corners.  I already have frogs & toads in residence, so looking forward to seeing what else moves in.

One day I will have enough room for a gunnera, until then, I'll just let the rhubarb act as a substitute.  Will be looking forward to all your stories & tips.

Happy ponding

[GrannieAnnie]

Nifty idea you have using rhubarb instead of gunnera!   :) Might have to copy cat that one since gunnera would not be winter hardy here.

[Ishard]

Baaaa the reason you cover 1/3 to 1/2 of the pond surface is not for the fish as such its because you will get blanket weed :(

Although fish do get skin cancer.

Pond fish are polykathermic meaning they take their body temp from the surrounding water temp and the warmer that is the better it is for the fish immune system, however if the water temp is high fish do need extra oxygen (o2) as warm water holds less o2 than cold water.

[Andy H]

Half ours is covered from the sun