hyacinth bean and seakale

[fi]

 wondered if anybody has grown hyacinth beans? if so were they productive, were they tasty and where did you buy the beans from?
 plus have had three years of failed seakale germination, sure it needs a bit of the old stratification or and scarification but i have given up with it. Anyone now where i can purchase divisions instead?
 this forum thing is all new to me and now i can bore you guys instead of my friends and family!

[saddad]

Hi Fi... sorry couldn't resist it
Hello Fi,
Tried Hyacinth beans but not got them to grow, others have. Haven't tried seakale but others have
Welcome to A4A.
 

[Squash64]

Hi fi,

Welcome to the forum  


Is this the hyacinth bean you are asking about?







One of our Bangladeshi plotholders grew this last year and if I can find out where he got the seeds from, I'm going to grow it too.  The flowers were so beautiful and even the pods looked decorative.  I don't know what it tastes like though.  

Thompson and Morgan sell Dolichos lablab seeds but the photo doesn't look exactly the same  as the ones he grew -  
http://www.thompson-morgan.com/seeds1/product/6251/1.htmlOC=WEBGPS

I'll ask him where he got his seeds from when I see him.

[fi]

thanks for reply photos great, will be interested to hear the variety your lottie neighbour grows.

[1066]

Dunno about the question you asked but welcome to the forum Fi 

[cleo]

Seakale??-the answer is simple.


Grow it and then do try not to be a bit senile and forget where it was. I have done that twice.

Older gardeners and their rotovators??

[Vinlander]

I tried both types (red and green) hyacinth/lablab beans but got absolutely nothing from the green ones - not even flowers - (and that was a good year).

The red ones (ruby moon) grew well and flowered beautifully, but the nice black pods were full of parchment as soon as they got over 3cm long. Quite nice picked small but slimy when cooked - not in a bad way - could be used as an okra substitute. I liked them best in stir-fries.

Ruby moon is mostly sold as an ornamental - but then all hyacinth/lablabs are ornamental...

The pods in the photos above look much fleshier - it would be worth trying to get some of those seeds - after my experiences I'd avoid UK seedsmen like the plague for this one.

Seakale is one of those gourmet vegetables you can grow as an ornamental edible - if you've got an unexciting bush in a sunny spot it doesn't need then it isn't paying its way - dig it up and replace it with one of these. Upend a nice pot over it during the winter and you'll be repaid with some very nice crisp blanched sprouts.

On the other hand the yield is too low to justify taking up useful space in a small veg plot - unless you have more space than you know what to do with...

[plot51A]

I grew hyacinth beans for the first time last year. Started them rather late but did get flowers but no beans. Was growing them on a fence for decoration anyway. I got mine from Beans and Herbs

http://www.beansandherbs.co.uk/heirloombeanseed.htm

Will try again this year but start them off in April.

[Digeroo]

I liked them best in stir-fries

There are a number of references online to them being poisonous and the need to boil them and keep changing the water.  

[Vinlander]

I liked them best in stir-fries

There are a number of references online to them being poisonous and the need to boil them and keep changing the water.  

Hi Digeroo

The web has become like the Bible - it's possible to find a hundred quotes to support any or all of the sides in an argument.

For example - from Geetha's kitchen:

"As far as I know only the pods and dried beans are eaten in India. The young pods (avarakai) are cooked like green beans; the seeds/beans (Mochai or Val) are soaked and skinned before incorporating into recipes. I have eaten them steamed, stir-fried, or boiled in various recipes."

I prefer folk wisdom to the axe-grinders of wikipedia any day!

The mature seeds are clearly a potential problem (and skinning them as above may be part of the solution), but it all comes down to dosage. The poison in question is the same one in manioc/cassava.
It's one that can creep up on you if you eat too much too regularly.

The social aspect of risk management is an interesting subject. It's turned into a political tabloid issue in the UK (creeping americanism - probably on the back of their obsession with litigation).

The result is that like all political issues we go from one extreme straight to the other - no chance of any happy medium.

Children have gone from extreme hardship - 2 mile walks fighting blizzards of sleet to get to school; to extreme coddling via the modern equivalent of their own flunkies with a sedan chair.

Only idiots ignore real risks, but there's something terribly bourgeois about thinking that all risk can and should be eliminated - because we are so wonderful, so precious, 'in apprehension, how like a God?'.

B@!!@<£s.

The best approach is the 'peanut throwing' one... It was invented by a very brilliant and exasperated US risk expert.

It must be very difficult to be a risk expert in the US without being exasperated - it's bad enough here.

Anyway, the idea is that a surprising number of US citizens die from throwing peanuts up and catching them in their mouths (or rather, they botch it).

On the other hand, we've all seen it done and/or done it ourselves with no ill effects.

He decided this was the threshold - anything causing more deaths was worth considering, anything causing less was worth ignoring.

It's a good strategy for life.

You'd be amazed how many scare stories fail this test (journalists do need their daily champagne and taxis). Just about any scare story you didn't already know was dangerous - isn't.

On the other hand people buy tasteless spreads and are shocked if you 'still' use butter while they are smoking 40 a day...

Ho Hum.

[Digeroo]

All beans are poisonous.  There was a thread a few months ago about someone who become ill that way.  Seems some people are more at risk than others.  I posted the comment in the hope that someone such as yourself Vinlander might have more information. 

Someone promised me some seeds last year, but have since left the forum.  Must say I like the look of the red flowered variety, but the picture shows much bigger beans on the pink one.

I certainly take things I read on the internet with a pinch of salt, (boiled well not forgetting to change the water.)

[Jeannine]

Hi, I grew these when I lived in Canada the first time, seeds came from a oriental friend , she told me not to save the seeds to eat as dry beans as they can make you ill but as fresh beans they are OK. They grew well and we did eat them, nothing of any significance and they did by the way self sow. I tried them in the UK( same seeds) to create a pretty barrier, they grew fine and did start to produce pods but the frosts got them first. My feeling was that they needed more heat than Yorkshire gave them and I figured Scarlet Runners would do the job and be productive so I didn't grow them a second time. Now I am home again I wouldn't bother growing them as there are much better harvests from other beans that taste good. If you grew them for their beauty and would without any harvest then I would see the point of growing them,the beans would then be a bonus, but as a veggie they would be a no no for me.

Not much help ..

Welcome to the site. I think you will enjoy it.

XX Jeannine

[ACE]

Lablab are poisonous if eaten raw. I don't know if they mean deadly poisonous or just stomach upsetting I am not going to try and find out. We use them mainly as decorative plants, and as there are so many other beans and such that are edible, I don't think I even want them cooked.

We have been growing them here for about 10 years and digging them in at the end of summer for the nitrogen.

[Vinlander]

The poison in hyacinth/lablab beans is actually different from the 'usual' bean poison.

Raw lablab bean seeds contain significant quantities of cyanogenic glucosides - the same as manioc and cassava and some bamboo shoots. This is a substance which (if it isn't leached and cooked) breaks down during digestion to release hydrogen cyanide internally - HCN.

Cyanide reduces your ability to send oxygen through your bloodstream - which can make you feel weak, dizzy, breathless and can obviously be fatal.

In really small quantities cyanide is fine, really - it's in marzipan and amaretto biscotti - but it may be an issue if a) the main bean in your diet is lablab and b) you don't cook the mature seeds.

I love marzipan so it's a pity the taste only benefits your intestinal bugs! It is just detectable in processed cassava and adds to the flavour - the subtlety described in the flavour of cooked lablabs may be partly due to HCN you can taste.

Raw kidney bean seeds contain significant quantities of haemaglutinin - completely different. It can cause nausea and vomiting - except that I don't grow kidney beans and the amounts in french and runner beans are very much smaller - so small that I can pick and eat several raw mature runner beans straight from a fresh pod with no ill effects (and several others said the same last time this came up). For the record they taste a bit like peanuts - not quite as good but a nice snack if you're gardening away from the house and need to nibble at short notice. The dried ones may be worse but if I'm hungry while in the house I tend to eat proper food.

Caution is sensible but worry seems to be more contagious than yawning - I even saw a Nigel Slater article where he said eating raw immature french bean pods might not be safe - this is so unlikely - except that some people seem to allergic to everything up to and including their own reflection.

The lack of precision in English usage is a problem - 'beans' are taken to include immature beans and may even be stretched to include pods. The more scientific the source is, the less the likelihood that they actually mean anything except the viable seed itself.

I will continue to be cautious and try small amounts before changing my diet - but as to worrying? That's different - I'll continue to be more worried about being killed by fragments of cheese falling off the moon.

[ACE]

I am not worried about them being poisonous, as I shall never eat them. No need to, as you say they are slimey cooked, and raw veggies ain't my bag. I was just passing on information I must have of obtained from the seed packets I  have used over the years. Also  being a helpful sort of chap I thought I would pass this information on to others who were not aware of the possible dangers.

What does worry me though is somebody encouraging others to to take the same silly risks as they take. Just because they thinks there is a conspiracy to stop us from living our own lives with no perils attached.

[Vinlander]

Ace, you're right about the need for people to be given information - thanks for that.

If you don't generally like sliminess in food that's your choice, but you may be limiting your experience and possible pleasure if you avoid say, okra for that reason (and a big chunk of far eastern cookery).

You're wrong to think I take risks - I'm extremely cautious about what I eat, I read up on whether the poison is cumulative or not, whether it is simple (more predictable) or complex (much less so).

I'm particularly concerned if it affects the central nervous system (because that heals so slowly) - you won't catch me eating blowfish or cycad seeds (sago palm) in a million years.

If it passes these tests I try a little first.

I have a very diverse diet - I prefer it that way. That means I will never eat a lot of something unless it's absolutely delicious, and then I'll get tired of it. If there isn't a tradition of eating it somewhere I won't eat a lot no matter how delicious it is (apple pips are yummy - but don't stockpile them).

I know some teenagers subsist on baked beans and spaghetti because they think meat is murder and veggies are yukky.

I agree that if they replaced the navy beans with raw lablabs they would succeed in being even less healthy.

You're also wrong to assume I think risk-averse culture is a conspiracy - it's not, it's just another fad.

It's one of a million other fads rattling us from one extreme to the other without ever pausing in the middle to look around - but creating that warm comfortable feeling of being in lockstep with everyone else - irrespective of whether everyone else is informed or not.

In this case the old extreme is being absurdly blase about risk (I saw this at first hand, I worked in the building industry in the 70s - the injury rate was horrific).

The new extreme seems to be a double whammy, not just avoiding all risks no matter how tiny, no matter how easy to assess or test for yourself.

But worse, being swayed by the opinions of (of all people) tabloid journalists and politicians (UK or EU) and the like - people who have a vested interest in short-circuiting your common sense (otherwise you wouldn't buy the rags or vote for them).  

I'll give you a better example of idiotic risk assessment than butter vs. tobacco for longevity - how many pesticides have actually managed to survive more than a decade or so before being withdrawn on health grounds?

How many people were quite happy to use them, and are quite happy to move onto the new versions that will almost certainly turn out to be just as toxic to ourselves or the environment - like Imidacloprid just has (Provado).

Why aren't these happy consumers banging on the gates of the big chemical companies (literally or metaphorically)?

Shouldn't they be compensated for being misled? If these relatively untried chemicals increased 10000 people's risk of life-threatening illness by 0.01% before being banned, isn't that as bad as driving onto a busy pavement? It's reckless endangerment irrespective of whether the expected 1 person died, or whether 10 people died or none.

Many of these same customers won't use any unlicensed product even if it's a traditional homespun remedy with centuries of safe use - even if it's made from something familiar they would be quite happy putting on their clothes or skin, even in their lungs.

It's a topsy-turvy world and it's getting worse because more and more mass media seems to mean less and less individual thought.

The world is in parts both safer than you think and less safe. The thing that gets you is often the one you overlooked.

Cheers.

      

[ACE]

One of the side effects of not eating raw veg is a loss of my attention span. I'm  sorry Vinny but my mind went off on it own a quarterway through your last post.

[Vinlander]

One of the side effects of not eating raw veg is a loss of my attention span. I'm  sorry Vinny but my mind went off on it own a quarterway through your last post.

Yeah, I'm not someone who can answer in a sentence - if I was I'd be writing headlines for the Sun (it's the only part of that paper I ever admire - and they don't always hit the nail either).

I won't apologise for being an extreme moderate - how else to counter the extremes in everything else?

Cheers.

[Jeannine]

In a seed catalogue today Johnny's
 Hyacinth Bean..Ruby Moon
120 days

Award winner,green and wine coloured foliage purple stems,lilac/rose blossoms,shiny magenta pods 2-3 inches entirely edible, flowers also,used in Asian.Thai and Indian cooking,blooms and pods also used as cut flowers.Perennial in warm zones but best used as an annual .Height 10 20 feet.


Picture is just like the one shown at the start of this post.
XX Jeannine