Seed from seed from seed

[ninnyscrops]

I know that planting a corm of garlic harvested from a previous crop works, but does the same work for cherry toms.  Does the yield decrease or is it a case of the variety has got used to the soil and therefore "performs"? Only ask as I saved some from last years crop of cherry tom seeds, all that I sowed have germinated and now have about 52 seedlings in the greenhouse! ::)

[ninnyscrops]

[triffid]

The nature of your cherry toms will depend on whether they were taken from a hybrid (F1) or a purebred variety.
Do you know what variety of cherry tom your seeds came from?

Garlic will breed true from corms because these are, like cuttings (or seed potatoes), pure genetic material only from the parent plant. They will grow up to be identical clones of their parent. If you grow garlic (or spuds) from their flower seeds, the same purebred/ hybrid issues come into play. 

[Trevor_D]

Even seed saved from F1 hybrid seeds will produce a crop, but it won't be true to type. But it might be better. I have saved seeds from Gypsy pepper for years. I still get thin-skinned, pointed peppers, just like the original, but they now seem to turn red earlier. When I saved petunia seed a few years back it produced brilliantly, but the flowers were very pale, almost white.

Try it and see. If you're onto a winner, save the seed again. If not, don't.

[jennym]

Well, that is a thing TrevorD, I too have saved Gypsy sweet pepper seed and they do alright, get good crops of nice peppers.

[potterfanpete]

Like others have said - it depends whether the seed was taken from an F1 variety. Your plants should produce a harvest, but the variety may differ from that of which they were saved from. Hope this helps :)

Pete

[Tee Gee]

I agree with what the others have said, but what I have also found is I only take cuttings or seed from the best plants! i.e. the ones that have given the characteristics that suit my needs.

Usually in the case of tomatoes/peppers I select a fruit from the plant that has yielded the most consistant crop for example; good shape/colour & taste, most manageable for size and for ease of growth.

With beans& peas I usually select from pods that are fullest.

With Garlic & Shallots the biggest

With cuttings from shrubs & flowers I select the healthiest and most productive plants.

In fact a nurseryman once told me when you take a cutting from a conifer the eventual tree will be the same shape as the cutting.

Meaning if you want a good uniform Xmas tree select a cutting of the desired shape.

Whether this is true or not I don't know but I am not prepared to doubt him as I can see a bit of sense in the idea.

[Robert_Brenchley]

Always plant the biggest garlic and shallots, that way you get big ones the following year. Small produces small. Save seed from the 'best' tomato, according to whatever criterion you use; early for outdoor crops, and so on.

[OllieC]

It's a point often made but was a revelation to me - most F1's only exist because they produce a commercially viable crop for farmers.

Generally characteristics that we would want are different to those which a farmer would want. Growing seeds from a Hybrid will not come true (although cuttings from something like a pepper would - same genetic material), but the Hybrid may well have been to include a characteristic we don't care about.

And now I start to get a bit opinionated...

New varieties have to be developed (at significant cost) with the aim of selling them on a large scale. We, the gardeners, are less important to the seed companies than farmers.

Commercially, order of top priorities are roughly:
Shelf Life, Look, Ease of Harvest, Yield, Consistency, .........

Ours priorities would typically be:
Taste, Disease/Pest resistance, Nutrition, Looks (even though we deny it!), Ease of cultivation, maybe...

Completely different priorities. The farmer isn't wrong - a commercially unaware farmer isn't a farmer for long. But it does mean that "new" varieties, particularly lots of the F1's are not going to be the best for our needs.

You don't know what the seeds will be lacking, and personally I wouldn't bother growing more than 1 or 2 seeds saved from an F1 until I found out what they produce. There are so many "real" seeds out there & when you can get seeds from the likes of Alan Romans for 49p, I just can't see the point.

Here endeth my rambling personal viewpoint.

[ninnyscrops]

Hi OllieC, ooops didn't mean to start any disagreement here  :)

I bought some Santini toms in early 2006, they tasted great so saved the seed from a couple that had gone over. Planted them out on the plot last year because all of them had germinated and grown into strong plants.  I left them to their own devices, no pinching out, with only a couple of canes for support and they just went mad.  The size and taste was all that I was looking for and no disease. Hence I saved some again.  As I said earlier they have all germinated again. My only query was whether I could expect the same abundance and quality of fruit this year.  So I guess the only way is test it.

[OllieC]

Hi OllieC, ooops didn't mean to start any disagreement here  :)

lol! That's my favourite thing about here - a nice mix of fact & opinion, generally aquired through experience, with plenty far more knowledgable than little moi.

[triffid]

My only query was whether I could expect the same abundance and quality of fruit this year.  So I guess the only way is test it.

I hope I didn't sound discouraging before; if so, I didn't mean to!
I'm all for experiments. In fact, I've got seed saved from a volunteer tomato that grew from a seed which survived in the kitchen compost. It produced beautiful little fruit, red and the size and shape of a olive. Like you, I'm looking forward to finding out if the 2007 crop breeds true to its parent from 2006. At least you have the advantage of knowing what your tom was bred from! :D

[ninnyscrops]

Not at all triffid.......... no probs.  I tend to go 99% with advice received and 1% with own hunch.  ;D

[weedin project]

One thing no-one's mentioned is cross-pollination.....

From what I've read I would think that if you only grow one variety of a particular veg (e.g. toms), then unless the insects etc. can get pollen from another variety nearby your seed will run as near to true to type as f1 will allow.  The problem with allotments (or many town gardens) of course is that the person on the next plot/garden may be growing a different variety.

I recall reading in (I think) the Simpson's Seeds catalogue that squashes are "particularly promiscuous", so their seeds shouldn't be relied-upon to germinate true to type.

[ninnyscrops]

Now.......... that could prove a problem this year for me, as one bed will be entirely cherry toms (only talking 3x6'), but the next bed will have Ailsa Craig and Harbinger. As far I as I can remember no one was growing toms nearby last year as most had a problem with blight the year before.  Gosh wasn't I brave last year coming to think of it, or just plain naive.  ::)

[Robert_Brenchley]

Toms are self-pollinating so they should remain true, assuming you start with a 'proper' variety. Squash can be a problem. I had some West Indian pumpkin seed last year, I forget who from, that had been saved for several generations. They were mostly large shop-sized orange puimpkins, but the appearance varied rather. one plant produced small, ribbed green pumpkins! I saved seed again, and I'm wondering what's going to appear this year. It all tasted good, that was the main thing.

[ninnyscrops]

Couldn't agree more, at the end of the day taste wins hands down.  :)

[Jeannine]

You can't do anything about your neighbours but you can make it easy on yourself to stop cross pollination in squash, They fall into four families and they don't cross pollinate, you can grow 4 different ones with safety without problems if you remember the rule.  If anyone wants to know their squashes family I can probably tell you if you tell me the name of your squash it is often on the seed packets by the way,
I never save seeds from my squash unless I am 100% sure, unless I bag the blossoms which I find a pain, but every so often I stick to the family rules and am safe.

Words to look for on yours seed packets are  Pepo,Maxima,Moscata or Mixta.

If you stick with one of each  you will be fine...not counting your neighbours of course.

XX Jeannine

[philcooper]

Commercially, order of top priorities are roughly:
Shelf Life, Look, Ease of Harvest, Yield, Consistency, .........

Ollie,

You missed out the No 1 criterion, ability to withstand mechanical handling,  it is not economic to lovingly hand pick each one and carry it to the table/cooking pot (despite what the M&S adverts say).

So commercial varieties of all veg are subject to a drop test, if they split or even bruise, they are not suitable - now you know why some of them are bit on the tough side!!!!

Phil