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I got some of my lovely experimental peas from the USDA, so when I decided last week that I wanted to try to create a landrace of runner beans I thought I'd ask for them from there too. The thought was that I could get a more varied and interesting selection rather than buying packets and packets of the few types available commercially and ending up with a million spare seeds.

I wanted to try nuña beans as well, so I asked for those too.

But I got a letter today from the USDA saying that they aren't allowed to send me any Phaseolus at all because the UK government insists that they certify the seeds as free from Xanthomonas campanestri. They can't do that, so I can't have the seed.

Bah.

I'm going to get a couple of packets of "ordinary" runner bean seeds and maybe see if anyone's willing to swap a few. I really want a good varied selection otherwise it's not really a landrace...

I don't think I'll have any luck sourcing nuñas. :(

I rather thought that the selection of varieties of runner beans available in US was very limited.

I had to look up what "landrace" meant and then nunas. According to below, nunas might not produce in cool areas like the UK.
Did you mean that American private individuals cannot mail seeds to private UK individuals?

"NUTRITIVE VALUE OF NUÑAS (POPPING BEANS).
An article by van Beem et. al., in the April-June 1992 issue of Economic Botany addresses
this topic. But first, what are popping beans?
Nuñas are varieties of (American) common beans, Phaseolus vulgaris, which burst when
toasted. In spite of the common name "popping beans," they do not actually pop. Rather,
when heated in hot oil or on a hot dry pan, they expand and split open. This is all the
cooking they require. "The resulting product has a powdery texture with a taste between
that of popcorn and roasted peanuts." Most of our staff very much enjoyed the very few
beans that we could spare for eating as a snack.
Nuñas are cultivated in the highlands of Ecuador and Bolivia between 2,000 and 3,000
meters. In regions where firewood is scarce, the benefit of these beans obviously extends
much beyond their unique taste. Most beans must normally be boiled for a long time to be
adequately softened. This time is even longer in the mountains where the boiling point of
water is well below 100 C. Nuñas require only 3-4 minutes of cooking.
The plants are the "pole bean" type. They seem to be susceptible to common bean
diseases. We can only keep the plants alive in the winter months here in southern Florida,
so I doubt very much if you would succeed with them in any area where common beans
do not grow well. They are also daylength sensitive. ECHO sent seed to several gardeners
across the United States. Although the plants often did well, they bloomed and produced
only in those few locations where they were still alive in late fall and winter when the
days were short.
"The unique texture and taste of popped nuñas appears to be related to their high starch
content. The high starch levels may also explain the 'filling effect' [appetite satisfied]
nuñas have after consuming 15-20 seeds, as bean starches have been reported as being
less digestible than cereal starches." [Ed: His thinking may be that materials that cannot
be digested remain longer in the gut so the person feels full.]
There is no difference in moisture content between nuñas and other common beans, but
in nuñas there is less space for steam to diffuse upon heating. "The steam forced
expansion of these [limited] spaces is thought to contribute to the popping mechanism."
Protein content is slightly lower in nuñas than in other common beans (20.0% vs. 22.2%);
starch (40.9% vs 35.5%) and amylose (18.1% vs 17.2%) are higher. The percentage of
protein which can be digested was slightly lower in popped than in boiled nuñas (76.6% vs
79.1%). "Nuñas stored at optimum conditions retain indefinitely their ability to pop.
However, under market place conditions, nuñas lose their popping ability 2-3 months after
harvest due to seed hardening. ... shop owners then will try to sell them as a dry bean
cultivar. However, when nuñas are boiled, they take a long time to reach an edible state
and the broth in which they are cooked is 'watery' when compared to the thick broth of
dry bean varieties."
The authors were concerned as to whether the short cooking time might be inadequate to
destroy the antinutritional factors in common beans, especially tannins and lectins. Tannin
levels in beans are low, though they do slightly reduce digestibility of protein. Lectins, the
principle toxins in common beans, are more worrisome, as they interfere with absorption of
nutrients from food. Lectins are themselves proteins, comprising about 10% of the total
bean protein. Fortunately lectins appear to be denatured by the higher temperatures of
roasting because popped beans had a similar or lower level than boiled beans.
Individuals working in areas where common beans are an important crop might well want
to take a look at nuñas. They probably have some export potential to the States because
of the publicity they have received in recent years and the limited locations where they
can be grown. In fact, one variety of seed that we are offering we purchased from a
health food store in California. If you work where these beans are common and have
helpful insights (especially as to how varieties may differ from each other), please write.
These have grown very vigorously at ECHO through the years.
RESEARCH ON NUÑAS (POPPING BEANS). The international research center CIAT in Cali,
Colombia is working (on a small scale) with nuñas. Dr. Jeffery White, CIAT bean
physiologist, says the beans do not produce well and are susceptible to most bean
diseases, so farmers grow them less and less. "In fact, the crop is probably disappearing."
Dr. Julia Kornegay at CIAT has crossed popping bean varieties with disease-resistant
common beans and sent the progeny to Peru for testing. But when crossed with ordinary2
beans, the offspring lose their popping ability. Special breeding techniques are needed to
recover that trait.
"There are about 30 types of nuñas that differ in seed size, shape and color, but all taste
similar. ...They retain their popping ability for years if stored at low temperature and low
humidity. But they lose the popping trait in a few months if stored improperly." Dr.
Kornegay would like to see popping beans marketed internationally."

Quote from: Digeroo on June 15, 2014, 10:09:07
I rather thought that the selection of varieties of runner beans available in US was very limited.

The USDA have quite a lot, because people donate them from all over the world. It took me a long time to look through them and decide what I wanted! They have things like "bean purchased from a market in Turkey in 1951 with multicoloured seeds and mixed flower colour".

I was hoping that the genetic variety in a few types like that from all over the world would be greater than in a few UK varieties. That'd be beneficial for the landrace, and would provide me with lots of interesting seed colour and so on.

Quote from: GrannieAnnie on June 15, 2014, 10:34:59
I had to look up what "landrace" meant and then nunas. According to below, nunas might not produce in cool areas like the UK.
Did you mean that American private individuals cannot mail seeds to private UK individuals?

I thought nuñas might be worth a try. I'd heard of someone crossing them with ordinary French beans to get plants that grow better in the US, so why not try a few experiments? They sound very interesting, certainly.

I don't know about private individuals. I'll have to look into it - but I guess if a package is just labelled "seeds" then no-one's going to know, right?

I've had all sorts of stuff sent over from the States with no problems at all. They only check one parcel in 30, and teh customs inspector is unlikley to be able to identify specific seeds.

Quote from: Robert_Brenchley on June 15, 2014, 13:50:00
I've had all sorts of stuff sent over from the States with no problems at all. They only check one parcel in 30, and teh customs inspector is unlikley to be able to identify specific seeds.

That makes sense. I guess official government organisations have to follow the rules though! ;)

I had considered getting the same order delivered to a friendly helpful US person and having them post the beans to me.

QuoteThey seem to be susceptible to common bean
diseases.

At the moment we have very few common bean diseases in the uk.  So perhaps we need to be careful.  Slugs/snails are actually the worse enemy at the moment.   They are not living long enough to be prey to anything else.

I suggest you join the heritage seed library they have some interesting runner beans.   

Nobody would want to be responsible for introducing a new strain of black rot into the UK. When I think of the problems we've brought into North America-- a whole host of predators, some which were supposed to be innocuous but turned into expensive mistakes that take out many crops, it only reinforces the truth that their are good reasons for rules.

Sure, importing/exporting stuff has definitely caused problems and avoiding potentially infected material is a very good thing.

But I can't imagine for a minute that the USDA seed storage facilities would keep seed from infected plants. An infection problem there would be disastrous, with all the precious seed they hold and grow. The problem isn't that their material is infected, just that they can't certify it as such.

Hmm...If you do look around European sites....there is much more to beans than you realize...
here is some worth of checking out...
https://www.vreeken.nl/2007/index1024x768.php
http://www.tomatensamen.at/Bohnensamen.htm
https://kokopelli-semences.fr/boutique

Get some lab lab  (hyacinth bean) the seeds are easily availiable I know Hardy's Cottage Plants stock them. They will give you something different and the seed lasts for years so no need to plant the whole packet.

I emailed Beans and Herbs asking if they could do me a mix of runner bean seeds. They say they can make up a packet containing Scarlet Emperor, Enorma, White Emergo, White Lady and Czar, which is definitely better than buying 5 packets and then not sowing the majority of the seeds.

I'm hoping to be able to add more varieties to the mix over time via swaps. Even a couple of seeds here and there will help!

Thanks for the links goodlife, some interesting stuff there!

If you want to grow runners for their green pods, you are better off making landrace from varieties that bred closer to home as rest of the world, that including most of Europe tend to grow more of 'seed type' runners. It is quite British thing to eat the pods.
Mixing 'seed varieties' with 'pod types' just results very disappointing pods but more smaller bean seeds.

I dont remember eating runner pods so I don't even know if I like them! I do love French beans though so I'm guessing I'll like runners.

I figure if I don't, I'll like the seeds anyway.

I can do both, right? Eat some pods and leave the last ones to grow for seeds? I'd like to try them both ways.

Quote from: Silverleaf on June 16, 2014, 23:44:01


I can do both, right? Eat some pods and leave the last ones to grow for seeds? I'd like to try them both ways.

That is actually not good practice (although it is often done).  Because it selects for later producing plants.  Pippa, the owner of Beans and Herbs, suggest growing plants for eating, and a few separately, for seeds.  She should know 

I tend to sow in batches so once the later ones come on line then I start eating them and leave the previous ones to go to seed.  Also if you do not eat the first beans then the plant stops growing and you do not know whether it would have been a good strong grower.

But if you do not eat the beans how do you know which are the best for eating and hence for saving.   No point in developing a strain of short, stringy, tasteless beans.   

Runner beans are much nicer than climbing French, but do not respond well to keeping.  Best eaten within minutes of picking.   

I think Goodlife is right, you really need to decide whether you are breeding for pods or beans.  A lot years of breeding has been going on to separate the two types.   I am not clear what you will achieve if you mixed them back together.

I had been trying to breed a drought tolerant variety.  But I find that the beans which have been crossed with French beans do very well, eg Moonlight, since they do not need bees.  However there seem to be a good number of bees around the raspberries so I am hopeful.   

I suppose what we really need are hummingbirds to do the pollination.

Quote from: galina on June 17, 2014, 08:18:33

Quote from: Silverleaf on June 16, 2014, 23:44:01


I can do both, right? Eat some pods and leave the last ones to grow for seeds? I'd like to try them both ways.

That is actually not good practice (although it is often done).  Because it selects for later producing plants.  Pippa, the owner of Beans and Herbs, suggest growing plants for eating, and a few separately, for seeds.  She should know 

I meant to leave the last ones for seed for eating! For saving seeds to grow, I'll plant a seperate batch like I do with peas and French beans.

I only have a 4' by 6' area of a raised bed for legumes for eating, so I've set up a breeding/seed saving area which is basically a load of big pots with canes in them. There's room for a few more pots for runners.

Quote from: Digeroo on June 17, 2014, 09:31:35
I tend to sow in batches so once the later ones come on line then I start eating them and leave the previous ones to go to seed.  Also if you do not eat the first beans then the plant stops growing and you do not know whether it would have been a good strong grower.

But if you do not eat the beans how do you know which are the best for eating and hence for saving.   No point in developing a strain of short, stringy, tasteless beans.   

Runner beans are much nicer than climbing French, but do not respond well to keeping.  Best eaten within minutes of picking.   

I think Goodlife is right, you really need to decide whether you are breeding for pods or beans.  A lot years of breeding has been going on to separate the two types.   I am not clear what you will achieve if you mixed them back together.

I had been trying to breed a drought tolerant variety.  But I find that the beans which have been crossed with French beans do very well, eg Moonlight, since they do not need bees.  However there seem to be a good number of bees around the raspberries so I am hopeful.   

I suppose what we really need are hummingbirds to do the pollination.

I like the idea of batch sowing for my eating beans, I'll try that.

Since I'm going for a landrace, I'm actually not concerned about selecting for productivity myself. I assume that the better producers will make more seeds than the others (and so select themselves) even if the pods aren't picked.

My intention is to taste pods from all the plants, and mark plants which taste best. I'll proportionally save more seeds from the tastier ones, but I'll save from the others too. After all, they're going to cross and mix up, and keeping a lot of genetic variety in there is important for this project - the less-tasty ones might combine to create something interesting.

I don't think pollination will be an issue here, I have a lot of plants which seem to be very attractive to bees and consequently there's always loads of them buzzing around.