Rotation

[philcooper]

On the spud trench - how deep? thread rotation has reared its head with a very valid comment

Hi Redclanger - rotation is only there as a guide - you know a rule to be broken. It's obviously a good idea - but don't let it spoil your fun. I always wonder on just an allotment sized bit of ground, how much good rotation would really do in the face of some kind of virus disaster etc.
Also, some people use rotation as a solution to a particular problem that they have discovered, rather than the norm - ie some gardeners have a permanent bean bed and a permanent onion bed. Someone may shout me down,.....
sb

I would add that rotation does 2 things:

helps prevent the build up of diseases by nit providing them with the same host in the same place each year

spreads the use of nutrients, e.g. brassicas need nitrogen, legumes supply it, potatoes needs lots of muck, root veg fork at the first sight of fresh manure.

So, it makes sense but a common problem is the fact that you don't grow the same quantities (by area) of each group, this is where, assuming you have enough space, the use of neutrals such as lettuce and sweet corn come in, they can go in any group (but shouldn't be planted in same place each year) and green manures such as Phacelia and Alfalfa.

On permanent beds, runner beans is a favourite, but there, if properly done, lots of fresh material is added each year and runner beans have few problem diseases. Onions however are definitely a bit dodgy, even with lots of new material as white rot is not uncommon and lives on for up to 7 years.

Phil

Phil

[philcooper]

[Svea]

quite right, the plot i took over in february had a permanent runner bean bed. and it seems, all the 'oldtimers' on our site do the same, runner beans in the same spot every year.

i promptly dug over the bed and it's designated for my brassicas this year. i want to rotate, if nothing else than to keep the plot interesting with stuff growing in different places than the previous year.

since i am a first-timer, i am discovering problems as i go along. rotation seems sorted out well, but what i havent calculated in is that at the moment, most of my plot is empty, and will remain so for another few weeks. next spring (or even starting in the autumn) i will plan better for some quick maturing stuff to go before the tender plants go out at the middle/end of may.

other than for radishes, and some lettuces, it's a bit late now though to start. i am afraid i wont be able to clear stuff off before the 'planned' veg needs to go in.

back on topic, joy larkcom in her book (grow your own vegetables) has a section called 'the case against rotating' - basically saying that you can grow stuff in the same place until there is a probelm, then move it around. it also talkes about having permanent beds for things like brassicas, which would be kept at a different pH level to the rest of the garden, also to prevent/control clubroot?

but i agree with you both, rotate when possible but dont be afraid to break the rules.

svea

[moonbells]

I find that easy rotation is an advantage of using the bed system that isn't normally shouted about.  I have seventeen beds in two half plots and so move produce around them - the nice thing about doing it that way is that you can have a really long rotation if you need it.  I reckon I can delay having sweetcorn on a couple of beds where it got smut in 2003 for 15 years (though it only needs five, I'll give it a few more).  I group the beds into the main types of veg, and rotate not only group to group but within each group too. And I have a large graphical word document on the PC to keep track. This is also nice cos I can change the colour of the beds as I plant or clear them.

I have however just given in to the temptation to do the permie runner bean area, simply because that way I can put up two large posts and tie the canes to wire running between them. Last year my conventional bean support frame (crossed canes in a row with another tied to the top) all fell over in wind and broke a lot of the vines.  This year about the only thing that can knock over the support is one of those two legged pests. Though you can't rotate them out, more's the pity!

moonbells

[aquilegia]

Does distance between beds matter? How far can, say, blight spores travel?

My beds have about 1ft between them. would the diseases travel that far? If so - my rotation plan will have to go on the compost heap!

[moonbells]

Aqui: I've heard folk say that any rotation on such a small scale as an allotment cannot possibly stop the spread of airborne disease.  This seems logical to me - blight sometimes blows in from fields away so we can hardly expect a foot of grass to do the trick. It's the build-up of soil-borne pests etc that rotation on any scale does help. 
eg if I have bad potato cyst eelworm I'm never going to get shot of it in any practical timespan (lifetime can be 20y), whereas if I don't, and rotate so that any budding population can't build up significantly (some will die between plantings after all - 20 is only a maximum) then the ground stays plantable with that crop for years, even if there is some loss due to a pest.  And it helps even more if we choose resistant varieties. And if one bed/planting area is slightly worse than the rest, you only lose one year in four of one crop, not all, permanently.

Least that's my theory!

Then of course there's the complementary benefits - manure one year, general fertiliser/compost another, for whatever is coming in that season means that all of the garden gets manure/compost/leaf mould every four or so years and the overall fertility stays generally high everywhere rather than having poorer areas and some with the fertility of neat chicken poo! And with each crop getting the appropriate amount of nitrogen.

moonbells

[djbrenton]

I can't remember who, but one of the oldest established onion growers claims to have been growing onions in the same fields for over 100 years!

[philcooper]

djb,

Nothing is 100% in gardening

Phil

ps how old is this gardener who has been growing onions for over 100 years - maybe Tim knows him?  ;)

[terrace max]

Has anyone heard of a rotation for greenhouse crops?

I've got a bed in mine which had the usual tomatoes/peppers/aubergines in last year: I'm trying lots of outdoor/container toms this year and I could do the other potato relatives in pots elsewhere... So thought I might try something different and save myself having to change all the border soil next year.

My list is a bit short so far: lab lab beans, cucumbers, very late runner beans...errrm?? Any ideas..??

[philcooper]

It's very easy for pests and diseases to build up in greenhouses as they do not "benefit" from frosts to kill some of them off.

I have shingle beds in my greenhouse and grow toms, aubergines, cus etc in pots or ring culture rings, replacing the compost each year, This means that there is no need to rotate.

The average greenhouse bed is also quite small and the growing very intensive so, even if you have no disease in the soil, you need to import an awful lot of organic material each year to retain fertility.

Phil

[TULIP-23]

Thanks you Guys and Girl's :D

Just written out my Garden Plan 2005 for my Gardening Diary [Disc]......Ready then for Rotation in 2006 :D