Feeding my soil more

[antipodes]

Hi all, well this year again was a mixed success. Onions and spuds were terrific, I got a fair load of tomatoes, yet many other crops were quite a failure. Again, the root veg were almost a total flop (except parsnips which seem to thrive for me). I am still incapapble of growing a carrot.

I am starting to wonder if my soil is rich? Weeds grow fine  ;D and there seems to be plenty of worms and other insects, and yet the plants often seem stunted or they just produce badly, Like broccoli that don't really produce heads, aubergines that never flowered, beetroot that got leaves but not really bulbs. Yet if the soil was really no good, I would not get nice onions or potatoes would I?

I will have cow manure to add this winter and I have mulched the flower and herb beds and the fruit bushes with stable waste that has horse pee and poo in it (so it's just a kind of rich straw). However I don't really feed the veg aside from that except for an occasional handful of fertilizer granules. Should I actually be giving them much more feed? Or do I just need to work harder weeding? Now I have the basics of rotating the site, buying and sowing seeds etc more or less sorted out, I still don't know how to make teh veg really THRIVE.  This is now my 4th year and I am starting to lose enthusiasm, I feel like I take a lot down to the allotment but in the end I don't bring that much home. What do you think I am doing wrong still?

[antipodes]

[slyfox-mal]

dont lose heart its maybe just a simple reason why certain thing have struggled  in my opinion ( not worth much i know ).
its pointless adding anything unlass you actually know whats already there i would have the soil tested for all things includuing  n.p.k   ph all micro nutrients  organic matter  c.e.c .
it may cost a few pounds or euros to do it but why struggle on guessing what the problem is  it maybe a simple thing needs adding  to bring it to life.
i am growing giant veg and i get my soil tested twice yearly you would be amazed at the difference six month has when growing  anyhow im waffling on now good luck in the future  mal

[kypfer]

Difficult to tell overall ... certainly on my little plot my beetroots were slow to develop this year, almost certainly due to being in shade for too much of the day. The same seed did much better on the other side of the plot last year, where there's a bit more sun (further away from the trees). My onions have had varied success as well, again it may be ligh/shade dependant. For me it's being a case of moving stuff around each year 'till I find where stuff is most happy, then ignoring any concept of "rotation" if necessary. Obviously high plants at the back (north-east side for me), lower stuff at the front needs to be taken into account as well, but as I have relatively little space I tend to cram plants in as soon as there's room and hope it'll cope ... sometimes it doesn't  ??? but in response to your basic query, yes, feed feed feed. Plants will often "survive" in poor (for them) conditions, with just a few seeds produced, but at the end of the day that's all that's really necessary to continue the species. What we as gardeners are trying to do is encourage the plants to effectively over-produce, in many instances, and for this the plants need very optimum conditions, lots of appropriate nutrients and plenty water.

[1066]

I couldn't work out why some peoples veg, like Peas, were superb and mine positively medicore. Then I figured it out - people feed their plants lots on my site. It varies from person to person, some have a barrel with horse muck, or comfrey leaves and filled with water, that they use on their plants, others use blood fish and bone sprinkled liberally. Also people trench their food waste (peelings and tea bags etc), and then grow beans over the top and get great results.

So I've picked up a few lessons this year by looking at what others do on my site

So don't get too disheartened  :)

[kypfer]

... just had a further thought ... definitely worth doing a soil acidity test ... if I remember correctly, potatoes like an acid environment (or at least do very well in one) whereas brassicas do well with lime in the soil, an alkili environment ... could help explain why your spuds do well but your brocolli don't

[GrannieAnnie]

Some years are just plain bad for some crops. Last year gobs of cucumbers; this year only 1!

I do know though- it is probable if you over fertilize tomatoes you'll get lots of healthy greens and few fruits.
Throwing fertilizer at plants can be a big mistake.

So if in doubt, try a soil analysis as a starter to see where you really are chemistry-wise.

Whatever you do, don't give up. The fact that you had lots of tomatoes is wonderful. How many people can say that??

[goodlife]

Yes..I think we all have some crops that don't do particularly well..and it varies every year..well, nature give and takes..can't have it all ;)
All the manure and stable waste is nitrogen rich..and will encourage acidic soil conditions. Soil testing is ideal..but if you finding it difficult to get it done..how about doing regular liming for brassicas, peas and beans..once a year is enough. And use some balanced fertilizer for everything...eg.blood, fish and bone meal. Something fruiting and/or flowering crops you could give home made comfrey/nettle/seaweed liquid feed.
I don't think you will need increase your feeding as such..but knowing what crops need what kind of feed and how much, is most important. You'll get there ;)

[Ellen K]

I think 1066 has it.  You've got to put a lot in to the ground to get a lot out.  So farmyard manure, a few buckets of chicken pellets, growmore, bonemeal, Miracle Gro etc - mix it up a bit so everything can find the things it needs.

It sounds as if you are not doing too badly and part of growing stuff is accepting that not everything is going to work every year.  Maybe reading up on exactly which plants need what nutrients and where they come from would help a bit.  But I have done all of the above and more and my carrots are still rubbish.  Bummer isn't it?

[Tee Gee]

Strange how everyone does things I get the feeling I am a lazy beggar.

Once I have prepared my beds and planted out thats it more or less it!  apart from  just a bit of hoeing now and again.

This is how I prepare my beds; http://www.thegardenersalmanac.co.uk/Data/Soil%20prep/soil%20prep.html

I don't water as a rule, I will if we have a dry spell after planting out but if we get enough rain then I don't bother!

I never feed again

Once it is in the soil it fends for itself I haven't time to mess around with stuff that is out in the open.

I have enough on with watering and feeding my greenhouse & tunnel without worrying about the stuff in the beds.

Usually I am satisfied with my harvests and as you can see here I grow quite good stuff under this regime, lord only know what it would be like if I watered and fed as well!

[small]

This may be way off beam, but I've found that the consistency/texture of the soil makes a difference. Last back end I covered my plot to a depth of several inches with home-made compost, all vegetable with no animal component, and my soil has been completely different this year. I have no idea of the acidity or otherwise, I don't feed crops, but I've had my best ever year by far, I'm sure plants have found it easier to grow ....is this sounding like nonsense? But it's worked for me and I'm going to do it again this year however unscientific it may be. Don't give up, think of your pride in your successes. You'll miss it if you stop!

[Digeroo]

I always feed a lot.  I think carrots in particular like a good amount of PFB but I also use a lot of comfrey and nettle teas.   Together with loads of manure and compost.

I think that watering needs depends on whether the roots can access water.  If they cannot then watering is the only answer.  In my garden there are several feet of gravel in the way, on the lottie this has been removed and the water is mostly more available to the roots.  If I do not water in the garden I can forget about growing anything at all vegwise.

[muddylou]

This may be way off beam, but I've found that the consistency/texture of the soil makes a difference. Last back end I covered my plot to a depth of several inches with home-made compost, all vegetable with no animal component, and my soil has been completely different this year. I have no idea of the acidity or otherwise, I don't feed crops, but I've had my best ever year by far, I'm sure plants have found it easier to grow ....is this sounding like nonsense? But it's worked for me and I'm going to do it again this year however unscientific it may be. Don't give up, think of your pride in your successes. You'll miss it if you stop!

I'm glad to hear that Small as I've tried to do something similar for this coming winter. When I planted my spuds last March, my clay soil was wet, when we had the dry spell later it turned into lumps of stone (almost). I thought I've got to try and do something about it, so I've dug straw/manure into most of the beds and sowed green manure over the top. Hoping this will improve things. My Onions were very hit and miss this year, my leeks were c**p last year, so here's hoping.

[lincsyokel2]

Some years are just plain bad for some crops. Last year gobs of cucumbers; this year only 1!

I do know though- it is probable if you over fertilize tomatoes you'll get lots of healthy greens and few fruits.
Throwing fertilizer at plants can be a big mistake.

So if in doubt, try a soil analysis as a starter to see where you really are chemistry-wise.

Whatever you do, don't give up. The fact that you had lots of tomatoes is wonderful. How many people can say that??

it depends what you fert it with. If you throw on a high Nitrogen fert you will indeed get leaves like spinnakers and little fruit. On the other hand if you dose the tomatoes with phosphate at first you get good roots, then another dose with potassium as they flower you'll get lots of fruit. On the other hand, Spinach is all about leaves, so lots of nitrogen is name of the game.

All ferts are not equal..................

[GrannieAnnie]

Some years are just plain bad for some crops. Last year gobs of cucumbers; this year only 1!

I do know though- it is probable if you over fertilize tomatoes you'll get lots of healthy greens and few fruits.
Throwing fertilizer at plants can be a big mistake.

So if in doubt, try a soil analysis as a starter to see where you really are chemistry-wise.

Whatever you do, don't give up. The fact that you had lots of tomatoes is wonderful. How many people can say that??

it depends what you fert it with. If you throw on a high Nitrogen fert you will indeed get leaves like spinnakers and little fruit. On the other hand if you dose the tomatoes with phosphate at first you get good roots, then another dose with potassium as they flower you'll get lots of fruit. On the other hand, Spinach is all about leaves, so lots of nitrogen is name of the game.

All ferts are not equal..................

that's a good point. You have to read the fertilizer label to see which is high in N or P or K then after the soil analysis you know which type to add. Also the acidity requirements and possibly the minerals needed.

[antipodes]

Well, that is all certainly food for thought! I do rotate the crops, maybe that is why sometimes things do better than others... I do onions, followed by potatoes, followed by beans and squashes followed by tomatoes, peppers etc. brassicas tend to go where there is space!
Maybe that is wrong?
I do also add home-made compost, which is made almost solely from home scraps, some plant waste, coffee grounds and paper.
I could try trenching where the beans will go, I know that many people say that makes a difference (actually beans grow quite well too). I am quite distressed about the carrots and beetroot though...
I worry that it is because in general I cannot weed enough, I try to use weed suppression techniques to limit them, this year I found that the soil was so dry, I just had to water water water and no time left to really keep teh ground clear. Maybe that didn't help...
I guess I should just be grateful for what I got! But coming back with just a few tupperware containers of veg, for all the hours I put in, my husband i starting to look at me strangely... I will just hope for the best next year...

[Tee Gee]

I do onions, followed by potatoes, followed by beans and squashes followed by tomatoes, peppers etc. brassicas tend to go where there is space!
Maybe that is wrong?
I do also add home-made compost, which is made almost solely from home scraps, some plant waste, coffee grounds and paper.


I found that the soil was so dry, I just had to water water water

It sounds you have a limited supply of compost and you are spreading it out too thinly so that everything gets some whereas if you put it all to one area you might be better off!

If it were me I would put all or most of it in my potato bed! Then next year I would follow these with brassicas, then the next year the rest.

If at any time you have a bit to spare put it the bed that has gone a couple of years without any!

[Digeroo]

At which stage do your carrots/beetroot fail?   Do they 1. fail to germinate, do they 2. disappear after germination or 3.  just produce very small useless carrots/beet?

My suggestions are. 1.  germinate on a plate covered in damp kitchen roll covered with plastic bag sow after 5 days make sure you have fresh seed.  2.  Slug pellets, 3.  Fertilise, water and sow the seeds thinner.

Potatoes are the same famiy as tomatoes so I  have a several year gap between also the beans produce nitrogen in the soil so I tend to put brassicas and squashes after them.

I kept mine well weeded in the spring but later on there is not much space left for the weeds.   

I would try and find a source of more biomatter, if nothing else it provide mulching and keeps the moisture in the soil. 

[chriscross1966]

Do a PH test on several bits of the plot (GC's sell little kits).... POtatoes adn brassicas have non-overlapping "happy zones" for pH so in general the odl method on neutral soil was manure for the spuds (becasue it is supposed to be slighly acidic, and if you really have to go to town, sulphur as well, followed by brassica's getting limed, no manure, maybe some BFB/Growmore, then roots and onions, with the assorted mineral/chemical fertilizers of you choice, it's OK to give onions manure/compost if you have any (but not carrots/parsnips) followed by beans/peas getting as much compost in  under them as you could give, then back to spuds again..... Of course this is an idyllic Ministry of Food thing from the war but there's more than a grain of sense in it.... I donm't grow masses of brassicas, I do grow a lot of onions and cucurbits forma  major group on my plot so you do have to shuffle a bit, buit the important core really is spuds and brassicas, th potatoes should never follow brassicas, it's way easier to lime soil in for brassicas than it is to acidify it for spuds... if you're on chalk then you'll need a lot of manure, grow the spuds in that then dig it in     is generally the old suggestion....rasied beds and council compost the modern one.....

Look to see if your council has a recycling compost scheme that allows you to obtain the stuff loose, borrow a mate with a trailer and see how much you can squeeze in... uing my minibus (admittedly with a skinny camper converion in it) and an 8x4 trailer I've yet to fit a ton in and that's about 3000 litres of compost, in half dumpy bags used as load-liners... I have to shovel it myself but at 28 quid a ton I'm not complaining.

Really there's no such thing as too much organic matter in vegetable garden soil, it just wants to be a couple of years old when the carrots see it, NPK balance gets easier the more humus there is anyway, but I find everything benefits fmor a bit of BFB (except tomatoes, just makes them grown big green plants) and chicken poo, that said I'm not above traawling the GC's and B+Q etc at this time of year buying any organic fertilizer they've got... the high potash stiuff goes to toms peppers and chillis with a bit for the onions in July, the rest just gets put near what seems to want it most....

chrisc
chrisc

[antipodes]

 :o :o :o :o
That is a lot of stuff to remember!! And I will never find time to be liming and composting and trenching and all that!  :-[
TeeGee said something interesting though about compost. I have 100 sq m but I guess annually there is about a wheelbarrow full of compost that gets chucked around rather randomly. That is probably insufficient now I come to think of it.
I am having another 1 sq m of cow manure delivered - the tomatoes were on very well manured soil this year and they did very well. Maybe that will help. I will try to get more compost.
For the root veg - the beetroot seeds germinate OK, the carrots not very well, and I did sow them April/May when it was pretty warm. Then the carrots even after a few months are only as thick as a biro and about 10 cm long  :( :(  I just chuck them out.  I grew them in soil where I had dug in sand and a few handfuls of all purpose fertilizer (organic quality). Obviously that is not appropriate.
I don't have access to comfrey or nettles really, there isnot enough room to be making concoctions anyway. I also don't have acces to any chicken manure or anything like that (but maybe i could source some out...).

[kypfer]

I have 100 sq m but I guess annually there is about a wheelbarrow full of compost that gets chucked around rather randomly

Under those circumstances I'd suggest using a handfull or two of compost under each plant as it's positioned (or seeds as they're sown) rather than spreading it far and wide, that way you can get your limited resources "right to the root of the matter"  ;D

A few years ago I managed a flower border like this. The original soil was very sandy and rather nutrient deficient, but with just the kitchen refuse from one person (me) composted down, I had an abundance of flowers right through the summer, after a couple of years, and the watering requirements reduced as well  :)