How to find out the history of our site

[manicscousers]

Anyone know where I can start,
there's some controversy about whether we are an allotments site donated to the people who used to work for the pit and separate from the club which was also given to the men,
we are all being charged membership even though we don't use the club, they are trying to re-instate the charge (used to be called rent, now a section fee) and want to run a meter from their water supply (which is not metered) to charge us for this, too
We gave a donation of £100 last year, this from the space for 6 full sized allotments, they want £240.00 so we need some help, thanks in advance for advice

[manicscousers]

[Trevor_D]

Do you have a local history society? The local library would be able to tell you, and if there is they would probably have copies of their magazines; with any luck there will be references to the history of the site. Perhaps in your case, it might be something to do with charity or social work for pit-workers? They would almost certainly have a website, too.

I've been doing some research into the history of our site, as it's our centenary coming up. Fortunately, our local historian is on the board of Trustees who actually own the land, so she was able to point me in the right direction and save me a lot of time. In our case, she had actually written an article about the history of the Charity, but it looked at each parcel of land they held, one of which is ours, so I was able to glean quite a lot of information.

If there's a local archive - perhaps in a central library - any legal agreements will be documented there.

I assume that there are no minutes or correspondence passed on from previous secretaries? I'm lucky in that I have full records going back to 1980. (Mind you, as the site dates from 1910, that's not much.)

Have fun!

[betula]

Local library should be a good starting point manics  :)

[Baccy Man]

Why is the clubs water supply not metered? Surely a club is regarded as a business customer not a domestic customer.

This quote is taken from Severn Trent as I am familiar with the site but all utility companies in England & Wales have to follow the same regulations set by OFWAT.

I'm also a business customer, do I have to have a meter fitted?

Yes you do. The Water Services Regulation Authority (Ofwat) agree that all business customers must have a meter. If your business is not metered, please contact us and we will fit one for you free of charge.

The 'Water Industry (Prescribed Conditions) Regulations 1999' which the above is based on can be viewed here:
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/si/si1999/19993442.htm

[Unwashed]

Sorry manics, can you just clarify what the problem is.  Are you saying:

1. A working men's club has told your allotment tenants that they are, by virtue of their allotment tenancies, members of their working men's club, and they are demanding their membership fees.

2. Your site's water is supplied via the working men's club's supply and they want to meter your supply and charge you £240 for it.

Who manages your site?  Does the committee have any paper documentation of a lease on the allotment site?  Who assigns the tenants their tenancy agreements?  Who do you currently pay for your water?  How big is your site - six full plots?

[manicscousers]

Thanks, Trevor, will look into it, no minutes, it's been an association as far as I can get for 45 years, before that, no idea..
we have been told the club is not metered, it was only built (on our allotment)  5 years ago, will have to look into it, second hand info..we have brought grants of about 13 to 14,000 in the last 4 years to flag all the paths, put up new fencing and generally improve the site.. we were told they had no money to do anything to the plots, even though they had a lottery grant and a sports england grant to re- do the whole site..anyway, ancient history, they're having money challenges and are looking for a soft touch  ::)
1/ no, when the club was the intex club, our site, so we have been told, was donated to the pit workers as an allotment site, it is next to the club(separate entrance) and they say we have to pay membership and site fees to them
2/we have an outside tap which is shared between us and the bowling green(they have spray hoses on for 6 hours at a time and the club wants to meter us (don't mind if it's just us and they pay for the installation of a meter)
The Association has always managed the site, no documentation at all, the committee allots the sites, don't pay for water, neither does the bowling..site is less than an acre

[Unwashed]

Who do the tenants pay their rents to?  The Committee?

You say the working men's club is not telling your tenants thet they are members, but is demanding membership fees?  Can you explain?

Has anyone, tenants or committee, paid money to the working men's club for anything in the past?

How the working men's club come to build their club on what you describe as your site?  Did they ask you?  Did you give them permission?

[manicscousers]

ooh, complicated, this
The fees are paid into the allotment bank account, this pays for improvements, maintainence and muck
The club, which has changed it's name to Golborne Parkside Community club 5 yrs ago, says to have an allotment we must be members, pay 10.00 per year membership fees and want a sort of rent/section fee off us
before we started, they used to donate 60.00 per year, no record or receipt was ever given, the committee paid a years 'rent before they were stopped by the membership, no bill has been sent since, we did 'donate' 100.00 from the plant sale profits last year to buy a tv for the lounge
wasn't chairman when they built on the site, they took 4 full sized(90x30) plots from us then another 18' from the others(we had 9 full sied ones then)
we were told by the councillor (Andy Burnham) that there was nothing we could do, it was a multi million pound club , the association was not strong but we did fight, we had no money and got ridden over, i did send nsalg mentor an e mail but was quite ill at the time and just felt like leaving, everyone seemed to agree with the club that they could do it, they even put in plans, including the part of land we are on with no allotments on, we had to go to the planning and get an addendum added on
hope this makes sense, bit long winded, sorry

[Unwashed]

I'm sorry manics, it's complicated isn't it.

One strategy is to assert ownership of the allotment site.  The most compelling argument is that the committee is in occupation, it assigns the tenancies, and it doesn't pay rent.  However, the committee is not a body corporate and so can't legally own the site and I don't see how it could claim adverse possession.  The tenants clearly don't own their plots because they pay rent, but it's not altogether clear that their tenancies exist in law because the committee can only lease what it owns.  None of that means the club owns the site, they would still have to prove better title, but they apparently had no problem doing that when they built their club house so they do have a very strong hand.

What seems most likely is that the tenants are tenants of the club and the committee is acting as the club's management agent.  As such you should have some formal arrangement with the club, and that might be the simplest way forward.  But if you approach them with this proposal it kills dead any hope of claiming adverse possession so you need to decide.  If they're telling you that you're a branch of the club they are in effect suggesting this to you.  It's not totally unreasonable that the club receive some rent - especially as they appear to give you your water free - but whether £10.00 if fair I'm not sure - it's a bit high.  Maybe you can negotiate.

On the other hand, if the tenants are members of the club this should give them rights.  Is the club democratically managed?  Can your members attend the AGM and vote?  Get the club rules and see what you're entitled to.

I don't quite understand everything that's going on, but it does sound like the simplest way forward is to try and regularise the situation by negotiation.

[manicscousers]

thanks, unwashed, we've been talking about this today, we want to negotiate a fair fee, there are 17 members, some with only 1 x 22' bed, we were quoted today 25.00 per member, per year, bit high for that sort of room..anyway, thanks for taking the time to think it through for us..we'll get the committee together with the club and try to sort it through, just don't see why we have to pay 10.00 per year, then water  then another fee?

[Digeroo]

Who actually owns the allotment site.site.   Preume this is lodged with the land registry.

Presume the pit records are still somewhere. 

Water - what about sinking a well. 

If you have not been paying rent - what about squatters rights?

http://www.coal.gov.uk/services/estates/index.cfm

[manicscousers]

Thanks for that, digeroo, I'll have a proper look after the open day/plant sale this weekend, maybe I'll be able to think straight then, it was just brought up today and added to the stress  :-\

[Trevor_D]

You've got to establish:

1 - Who actually owns the land

2 - To whom the landlord defers the rights to run it

3 - On what basis each tenant rents land

Good luck with the plant sale. Will be in touch.

[manicscousers]

as far as we can find out, they lease their land from the council, the rest has just been done since the association was formed  ::)