More Aminopyralid

[ceres]

The next meeting of the Advisory Committee on Pesticides is on Tuesday (15/9).  The agenda has the following items under Any Other Business:

Aminopyralid Letter to Allotment Holders ACP 12 (339/2009)
Aminopyralid Correspondence ACP 18 (339/2009)

Unfortunately the minutes of the meeting don't get published until 3 weeks after the date of the meeting.  I do find it slightly encouraging that they are still discussing it and that the approvals haven't yet been re-instated.  It's not too late to contact them if you haven't already: 

acp@hse.gsi.gov.uk

[ceres]

[tonybloke]

just fired off another mail to them, I hope more folk on here do the same!! ;)

[staris]

same here  :)

[gwynleg]

Just emailed them
Gwynleg

[Robert_Brenchley]

Just sent one. Lets hope it works.

[saddad]

and me too..  :)

[woppa30]

Just fired off an email. I hope (but doubt) that as a Ph.D. chemist it might lend a bit more weight but I think Dows money talk$
Fingers crossed. Now investigating spent hops. May not trust manure for five years even if this stuff is banned....

[chriscross1966]

Sent them this:

Dear Committee Members,

As an allotment holder in Oxford I beg you not to reapprove the use of aminopyralid for any purposes in this country. The likelihood of active residues reaching the manure supply though contaminated hay being supplied to stables is too great. Having conducted an experiment with no more than a few cupfuls of known to be contaminated manure this year I can assure you that the results on certain crops (I tried it with a climbing bean) are devastating. You will be the people that destroy the home growing of vegetables in gardens and allotments if you reapprove this menace to horticulture. A few thistles in a hay crop is a small price to pay.

Yours sincerely

Chris Crosskey
Plot 307 Redbridge Allotments, Oxford.

[asbean]

Email sent  >:( >:(

[Robert_Brenchley]

Thistles in hay never seemed to do the animals any harm.

[saddad]

Mine bounced back as undelivered?????  :-\

[ceres]

Odd.  Can't think why.  I've used that address several times and got replies.  Try using the link on their contact page?

http://www.pesticides.gov.uk/acp.asp?id=2350

[asbean]

I got a reply - they sent me a copy of an email they sent me earlier in the year  :-\ :-\ :-\

[Digeroo]

Mine not come back yet.

Thistles in hay never seemed to do the animals any harm.

Not sure ragwort is harmless.  Though there is a different product that dooms that.

Dow have removed messages on their web site saying that Aminopyralid/forefront have been withrawn.

Their warning leaflets seem to say that the contaminated manure can be used for cereal grass and corn crops, but say nothing about the manure created when these crops are then eaten.

[ceres]

The products haven't been re-approved yet and the information leaflets, labels etc haven't been updated for the new stewardship proposals.  I just had a look at the Pesticides Register - I hadn't twigged that the approvals for 7 of the 10 products that contain aminopyralid would have expired on 29/01/2010 and would have had to have been re-applied for anyway.

I've been asking the ACP about some quite specific issues and have found them quite responsive and helpful.  I don't want to post any of the information here for the moment as Gbar who is a member here is employed by Dow to run Manurematters.  I have attempted to ask him specific questions in his capacity as the person who Dow passes all manure enquiries to but have been met, in my opinion, with obstruction and obfuscation.  Dow aren't even trying to win hearts and minds here.

[tonybloke]

sent them another email, as my earlier one got 'bounced back'  ???

[ceres]

Hansard 9 Sep 2009

"Weedkillers
Mr. Watson: To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what recent discussions he has had with (a) representatives of Dow AgroScience Ltd. and (b) the Chemical Regulations Directorate on the relicensing of the herbicide aminopyralid; and if he will make a statement. [290689]

Huw Irranca-Davies: There have been no discussions with Dow Agrosciences Ltd. on this matter that have involved DEFRA Ministers. We have frequent discussions with the HSE's Chemicals Regulation Directorate, which is the part of central Government responsible for the regulation of pesticides, detergents, chemicals, on behalf of DEFRA Ministers.

We are currently considering the advice from the Advisory Committee on Pesticides that approvals for aminopyralid could be reinstated subject to various conditions."

http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm200809/cmhansrd/cm090909/text/90909w0005.htm#09090913000189

I have been trying to get to the bottom of the test kit issue with the ACP as I haven't been able to find anyone who requested a kit that actually received it.  Everybody (me included) that asks Dow for the kit gets an offer to have the manure removed.

In the 'reassurance' letter which a number of us got in July from Professor Ayres (chair of the ACP) he wrote:

"The approval holder for products containing aminopyralid, Dow Agrosciences has undertaken to provide a testing kit to allow you to check your manure,........."

I've taken this up with him and the ACP and asked if they actually eyeballed the kits and saw them working.  Here is the response:

"You have made some comments about manure testing in your emails.  There are a number of different possible approaches to testing manure for the presence of aminopyralid.  As you are aware from your earlier investigations there is a method of chemical analysis available.  It is however time-consuming, expensive, requiring specialist laboratory facilities and expert interpretation.  Neither we nor Dow AgroSciences would suggest that small growers, gardeners or allotment holders seek to test manure in this way, although for those who really want to pursue that approach the manure matters web site (link below) does give details of a laboratory to contact.   The more suitable approach for amateur growers is to use a simplified form of bioassay, testing the manure by growing a bean seed in a pot.   As you know, beans are in fact very sensitive to low levels of herbicides like aminopyralid and they do provide a reasonably reliable indication as to whether there is or is not contamination with such herbicides at a level that will cause an amateur grower problems.  The method to follow for this test is available on the manure matters website http://www.manurematters.co.uk/gardening.htm . 

I have raised your concern about the apparent lack of test kit supply with the company.   They have responded that their priority was to ensure that any contaminated manure was removed from the supply chain. Where they were sure that aminopyralid was involved, that is that the range of symptoms indicated aminopyralid, removing the manure from the site would prevent any further issues. If symptoms indicate that aminopyralid is present a further test is not necessary.  Hence their offer to remove the manure for you.  They have put the bioassay method for testing on to the manure matters web site (link above) and they are aware that this has been used by the public. The actual kits are available to those who have a need for it, but they consist of beans and pots and instructions for the test. In practice the majority of people have pots, compost and bean seed and therefore do not require a kit.  I should add that commercial growers have for many years used a similar 'bioassay' approach in determining whether soils are ready to use for planting crops after certain treatments that are known to have a residual effect on germination and plant growth.  In this respect this type of testing has been well-established for some other products."

The way I read this is that the ACP took Dow at their word that they would provide a test kit and didn't verify it at all until the statement was challenged.  Am I the only one that finds this disturbing?

[Fork]

Can someone please point me in the direction of the pictures that were posted of the plants suffering from this?

We have suffered on our allotments this year but this is with cow manure and the farmer insists there is nothing in it!

[ceres]

I'm sorry to hear that Fork.  It's certainly possible to come from cow muck and it's also possible the farmer might not know.  You need to ask him if he buys in/has bought in  any feed - hay or silage type feed - anything plant-based.  If so, that's a possible source of contamination even if he hasn't sprayed his own pasture/hay/silage.

There are some pictures at the beginning of this thread:

http://www.allotments4all.co.uk/smf/index.php/topic,42629.0.html

and also some good images here:

http://www.allotment.org.uk/garden-diary/261/contaminated-manure-aminopyralid-update/

Apart from stunting and a general failure to thrive the plants will show a distorted fern-like or cupped growth form.  It's very distinctive and can't be mistaken for anything else.  Let us know how you get on checking?

[ceres]

A couple of days after I posted on 22 Sep above, Gbar (Dow representative on all things manure) was online here on A4A.  5 minutes after that, I got the following in an email from him:

"Concerning the test kits, these are being put together at the moment and you should receive yours next week."

Co-incidence?

Test kit hasn't arrived though.