Topic: Simply sign and return?

[Nigel B]

Hiya.

This came in the post today, along with the receipt for payment of rent for the period 2012-2013.

 I signed one of these when I took possession three years ago when we started up and were self-run. Since then the council took control and have presumably changed something in the contract.
My question is, am I obliged to sign this?



Scantest4 001 by Nefariousenator, on Flickr

[persecuted unlimited]

phone the office and ask the reason why they want another one signed, it could just be they are updating there records and making sure they have the right contact details for everyone.

[Chrispy]

Looks to me as it is an update to reflect the change from self run to council run.

Who was your original agreement with, the council or the association that ran the site?

[Unwashed]

It's not a tenancy agreement or contract, it's just a record of your contact details.  There's no need for you to sign it, though there's no particular problem if you do.

I can't see that they need you mobile number or e-mail address to administer your tenancy so if you don't want to give them those details then don't, it can make the administration easier if they can phone and e-mail you.

If they needed to update their records the polite thing to do would have been to say that's what they wanted.  As it is I can't see how this helps them because if you received it in the post then they already have your details, and if you didn't, they haven't.

[Unwashed]

I don't know, thinking about it the fact that it say "This Agreement" at the top does strongly suggest that the council are treating that form as a tenancy agreement - albeit a tenancy agreement without any terms!  There are quite a few implied terms in a tenancy agreement so that might just work, though not if the council haven't already filled in the plot number at the bottom before you sign it.

In general you are never obliged to sign a new tenancy agreement, and if you don't that doesn't in itself terminate any existing agreement.  If a council want to impose new rules and regulations what it is supposed to do is give you 12 months notice of termination and offer you a new tenancy on the new terms, and the new agreement takes affect from the moment you sign the new agreement.

Some councils like Newbury Town Council, are bullies, and they will send you a new agreement and demand that you sign it right away.  You should always be given 12 months notice of any change so that you have enough time to quit the plot in good order if the new terms aren't acceptable.

[Nigel B]

Cheers guys.
Unwashed,, Here's a copy of the previous letter I was sent. I had only quickly scanned it the first time I saw it so I missed its content for the most part, but there's that 'fill in the tenancy form' bit again....


CouncilLetter1 by Nefariousenator, on Flickr

I'll freely admit I don't trust them, something I've learned from experience.
The last letter came with a self-addressed and stamped envelope too. They have all my details for sure, so they want me to sign this without seeing any new constitution or anything.
Any more advice? I'm tempted to just ignore it and see what's said.

[Unwashed]

I think perhaps it's just a form the council put in to identify your plot when you send the payment in.  I think I'd just send my payment in with my own covering letter identifying myself and the plot I'm paying for.  You're not obliged to do any more than that.

[davyw1]

I think i would just sign it and send it in along with your cheque, after all you have already done one without any problems, you are not exactly giving them anymore info than they already have.
At worst you are only signing to say you agree to abide by the rules laid down by the council.
Its not down to the council to chase you should they not have the right contact details its up to you to inform them. If they cant contact you and you fail to pay your rent within forty days then they reclaim your plot.
If you are not happy about not having a set of rules then its down to you to ask for a copy. Its not down to the council to send them out to you. They should be available to all that ask.

[Nigel B]

I already paid, and have the receipt. They already have all my details, that's why I asked.
I'll do as you suggest Unwashed and return it with just the appropriate information included in a covering letter.
Cheers. 

[davyw1]

I think you may be getting it back Nigal, i don,t see the council not having a clause stating that all allotment holders must sign an agrement to abide by the rules.If you fail or refuse to sign then you are in breach of the rules so they may turn round and refuse to renew your lease.
If you do it right the first time you wont have anything to put right if you got it wrong

[Chrispy]

Circle the bit that says 'This Agreement' and by it write '? No agreement is attached'
Fill it in, sign it and send it back.

You have done what they have asked, they will just file it away, but if in the future thay claim you have agreed to some rule in a new agreement then you will have proof you did not agree as you were not informed.

[Unwashed]

I think you may be getting it back Nigal, i don,t see the council not having a clause stating that all allotment holders must sign an agrement to abide by the rules.If you fail or refuse to sign then you are in breach of the rules so they may turn round and refuse to renew your lease.
If you do it right the first time you wont have anything to put right if you got it wrong

When you sign the original tenancy agreement you're agreeing to abide by the rules - but only if the rules are attached - that's pretty obvious really, but the Unfair Terms In Consumer Contracts Regulations confirms that.

There can't be a term that obliges you to sign any future agreement - you won't know what that future agreement says - UTCCR again.

If you refuse to sign a new agreement that in itself does not end you existing tenancy which can only be terminated with 12 months notice.

A landlord cannot - and let me repeat that, because it does come up occasionally - a landlord cannot refuse to renew an annual periodic tenancy (which is almost always how allotments are let) because annual periodic tenancies continue until either side serves a notice to quit on the other.

However, vindictive councils who want to impose new terms without the necessary statutory notice will often bully tenants into signing without notice, and unless you have an effective site association it's probably not worth taking on the council yourself.

[davyw1]

I am not disagreeing with what you say.
The allotment tenancy is paid annually each year, you sign your tenancy agreement for the coming year, the way i see it that is all the council as Nigel's landlord is asking him to do.
 
If Nigel signs the form and sends it back he is only agreeing to what is written on it, the small print at the bottom (the council will not give out info to other parties and they have the right to take photo,s of his plot).
Unless he has in the past signed to agree with the councils allotment rules, so therefor this would be a continuation of that agreement

If he doesn't sign it he is not he is not renewing his lease the council are not obliged to give you a reminder after the first letter is sent. I don't think the council will bother to inform him that there is a limitted time to do this before they can reclaim possesion. We all know that council move at the pace of a startled earth worm
If he is in breach of the rules by not signing the council just may have the attitude of no tolerance and respond with a notice to quit, so they have to Wait a year, but its only one letter and no more being messed about.

The trouble is none of us know what the councils pollicy is and i would not like to see anyone loose their allotment just because they do not trust the council.

After all Nigel has had hassle free gardening since signing the first why should that change now because the council want to keep their records up to date.

He could be making a rod for hid own back

[Unwashed]

The allotment tenancy is paid annually each year, you sign your tenancy agreement for the coming year

No, you don't.

You sign the tenancy agreement at the start of the tenancy and that agreement then continues year after year after year so long as you pay the bill - nothing to sign at all.

Signing a new agreement will terminate the old agreement and start a new one, but why would you want to terminate the old agreement if you were happy with it?

[davyw1]

I didnt exactly phrase that right did i

Anyway the issue is the form that Nigel posted requiring a signature

Which is an agreement that the council will not give out any of his details without prior permission (which is fairly standard)
And that they may take photographs of his allotment and publish them to show and promote the work done on allotments and by the coucil (for which they need his consent)

I would guess that the council is setting up a web page on the the work they are doing for all to see.

So if he wants the council to give out his details to third parties and not take photo,s of his plot then he should not sign it.

On the other hand if he if he does not want his details given out and would like a picture of his plot on the councils site then sign it and return it.

[Nigel B]

........ Aaand here it comes: 

First out of the envelope, hand-delivered by someone on tippy-toes....


Niggy1 by Nefariousenator, on Flickr




Niggy2 by Nefariousenator, on Flickr




Niggy3 by Nefariousenator, on Flickr

[Nigel B]

Next out of the envelope  came this:.... Something called a 'Sub-Licence Agreement'....


Niggy4 by Nefariousenator, on Flickr




Niggy5 by Nefariousenator, on Flickr





Niggy6 by Nefariousenator, on Flickr




Niggy7 by Nefariousenator, on Flickr




Niggy8 by Nefariousenator, on Flickr

[Digeroo]

Is there some kind of committee?  Seems rather dictatorial to me.

[Unwashed]

What do you want to achieve here Nigel?  It's hard to get your rights if you stand up to a tyrannical committee.

You appear to have been served with something that purports to be warning you to put right some breaches of the tenancy agreement, but if I understand your situation right your landlord is currently the town council so only the town council has the authority to send you this warning, the allotment society currently have no standing.

You don't have to sign anything.  Your tenancy will continue even if the town council leases the site to the allotment society, it's just that the allotment society will become your landlord. 

The tenancy agreement that the society want you to sign is confused and semi-literate.  It's also mistaken about some important details.  The society does not have the right to terminate a tenancy without notice and the clause that says it has is ineffective.  You also have the right to put hens and rabbits anywhere on your plot, not just where the society says you should.  Clause 18 is gobbledegook.  The society does not have the right to inspect any part of your plot without notice as this infringes your fundamental right to exclusive possession and quiet enjoyment.  You don't have a license, you have a tenancy.  Clause 5. which empowers the society to tell you what to do exceeds their powers.  Even the shed rule is probably unenforceable as it requires that you obtain permission for a shed and does nothing to prevent the landlord unreasonably refusing permission.

If you wanted to you could complain to Trading Standards that the tenancy agreement was unfair under the Unfair Terms in Consumer Contracts Regulations 1999, but Trading Standards are pretty rubbish and you'd have to explain each unfairness, and that's not trivially easy.  It would also pis5 off the society and they'd likely evict you for asserting our rights - tyrants typically do that.

It's up to you, but I doubt you'll get any support and I doubt anyone would really understand what you were complaining about - it might be best just to poke up with whatever it is that's frustrating you.

[Nigel B]

What do you want to achieve here Nigel?

I think the best result now is simply to save my crops and do one Unwashed.
Thanks for you consideration so far though. I am in your debt mate.

Meanwhile, I received a copy of the first notice, the 'Rules Infringement Notice', by registered mail this morning too. Same notice so they must believe it carries legal weight, sent to me only and not my Plot-sharing daughter (They say they are discontinuing shared plots from now on, so what happens to her rights? Any Idea?)

Also. Do I warn them now that they are about to break the law by clearing my plot and taking possession of my crops and shed/fence materials and refusing me admission to their AGM?
 (Incidentally, the fence is erected because of the huge on-site rabbit problem. I see nothing wrong with it at all except that its plastic with a wooden front, to be fair. Can one be forced to open one's plot up to rodent attack?)

Anwyays.
 A graceful exit with crops intact would do it.
Frustrations?  I am not about to rip down some up-cycled rabbit-proofing fencing to please a self-imposed committee of pensioners looking for somewhere else to spend their time and money controlling.
That is not what allotments are about, and certainly not what I had in mind when petitioning the council on their behalf for the last few years. I'm done with it, or will be after removing those crops now coming to maturity and digging up the perennials for replanting in my garden.

Just one more quicky if I may..... Can they now give themselves permission to declare the land private and to rent plots to people not from the parish? The land is supposed to belong to us, the people of Bodelwyddan, no?
 
There goes the back-garden lawn though! It will be an operating no-dig bed by this time next year. So I suppose its not all bad. :)