Topic: White Poppies

[OllieC]

As the death count of our young soldiers & the civilians (that are killed in foreign countries on your behalf) increases on a daily basis, is it time to change the colour of your poppy? There's a myth that these are disrespectful to the dead, which couldn't be further from the truth, in the same way that wearing a red one doesn't mean you think war is great. They do symbolise the view that killing lots of people isn't a very effective way of not killing lots of other people...

http://www.ppu.org.uk/whitepoppy/index.html

[valmarg]

Sorry Ollie, those young servicemen are not being killed on my behalf, but on the behalf of Tony Blair and George W Bush.

My grandparents lived through the Boer War, WW1 and WW2.  My parents lived through WW1 and WW2.  My dad was in the convoy trying to get to Arnhem depicted in the film 'A Bridge too far.

If you suggested to any of them that you replace the red poppy with a white one would have been derided.  You have to remember that during WW1 white feathers were handed out to men who were not in uniform.  A signal of contempt, so I can't imagine what the white poppy would represent.

The Royal British Legion was set up to help those injured during WW1, and their families, and went on to help after WW2.

The fact that they are just as needed today is not a reflection on the colour of the poppy, but the fact that they are needed at all.

valmarg

[Hyacinth]

I'm floundering here, Ol...not because I don't agree with what the white poppy symbolises, but more because I'm committing the Cardinal Sin - hitting keyboard before crystalising thoughts :-[ I don't want and don't intend to cherry-pick words from your link, so no cut-and-past from me, just a years-old conditioning that red poppies are, to me,  for remembrance of soldiers fallen in the fields of battle. And so therefore I'll be wearing a red poppy which will signify my respect to all the fallen in all the wars since the Great War - the War to end All Wars.

I'd like the white poppy, and all it signifies, to co-exist and why not wear both?....but until the meaning of the white poppy has a greater profile and more public understanding of what it stands for, I, for one, wouldn't wear it alone :-\

[Melbourne12]

As the death count of our young soldiers & the civilians (that are killed in foreign countries on your behalf) increases on a daily basis, is it time to change the colour of your poppy? There's a myth that these are disrespectful to the dead, which couldn't be further from the truth, in the same way that wearing a red one doesn't mean you think war is great. They do symbolise the view that killing lots of people isn't a very effective way of not killing lots of other people...

http://www.ppu.org.uk/whitepoppy/index.html

 

In which case, why do they try to hijack Remembrance Day?  If red poppies symbolise our remembrance of and respect for the fallen, then a competing symbol must be carrying a different message.

I'd be quite happy if the PPU wanted to organise a flag day for us all to say, our little faces shining with self-righteousness, "Peace is kinda good, man, and war is kinda bad."  I'd be even happier if it wasn't scheduled for November 11th.

[Mr Smith]

Not a chance I can just see me turning up on parade next month  with a white poppy I will end up having it shoved down my throat I find the very thought of white poppies being a total insult to our brave servicemen and women, 

[OllieC]

Not a chance I can just see me turning up on parade next month  with a white poppy I will end up having it shoved down my throat I find the very thought of white poppies being a total insult to our brave servicemen and women, 

That's because you don't understand them or what they symbolise. My grandfathers both fought in WW2 as well, although my grandmother's side were Quakers & therefore unable to participate in anything supporting any violence. They risked their lives smuggling Jewish children out of Austria instead - not exactly cowards.

I have no doubt at all about the bravery and commitment shown by those who have fought or those who have fallen. But those that died did not die a glorious death, they died a horrible death, often leaving behind loved ones and we need to question very closely how much we need to repeat mistakes of the past and whether there is anything else we can do before we resort to aggression.

The white poppies say we should learn from the past, instead of blindly repeating it. Surely we can learn from the bloodshed of previous war?

[posie]

I've always thought of the red poppy as a way of remembering those who have died serving their country not in terms of who ordered them out there in the first place.  However I can see the symbolism of the white poppy but I don't think it should be worn at the same time or in place of the red poppy, I do feel that would be insulting to those who have fought and have been killed or seriously wounded, whether that be soldier or civilian.  I would be in favour of a separate day where these can be worn to symbolise the futility of war.

[Mr Smith]

I thought you would come back and have a go at my post, and what did you serve in more than likely sod all  you come up with this old chestnut again the White poppy, before you suggest anymore left wing loony ideas just give a bit of thought to the vets and serving personnell.

[SMP1704]

I do not support war or the politicians who order them or the arms industry that feeds on conflict.

I will wear a red poppy, to remember the sacrifice that millions of men, women and children have made - often unwillingly.  For me, turning up one Sunday morning in November is a way of saying to all of the above, we remember what you have done.

I pay my respects to all of those whose lives ended far too soon and for those who came home and who lived/live with their memories.

The colour of the poppy will not change politicians inability to learn from the past or their current willingness to rush to war.

War memorials began around the time of the Boer War as a way for communities to raise awareness that their sons/husbands were not coming home in quite large numbers - they were the first war protests - we don't need a white poppy, just turn up to your local war memorial.

[lorna]

Yes I will wear a red poppy.
I sincerely hope this thread does not turn in to disrespectful comments.

[OllieC]

I sincerely hope this thread does not turn in to disrespectful comments.

Me too... You know me Lorna, I think there's room for all views in an intelligent discussion & I mean no disrespect to anyone who has fought in any war. I'm just not convinced most war is needed and I think it's possible to discuss this in a respectful way. Or at least it should be.

Calling anyone who disagrees with you a left wing loony isn't very constructive, and detracts from the discussion. It's a shame, Mr Smith, I expected better of you but perhaps gave you too much credit. I have several friends in the Navy & my grandad was a Commander & awarded an MBE for his efforts. But it's only you that bangs on about glorious war the whole time, I suspect because you've not actually seen much of it.

I would prefer it if people who can't be courteous to those who disagree with them didn't contribute. Then we can have a tasteful discussion.

[Mr Smith]

OC,  you seem to have this problem with anything I post  even when I posted about mi muck you made out I was telling porkies not that I'm bothered about what you think, what would you have done sixty odd years ago lay down on your back and with your legs up in the air or go off and be a quaker, I think you will find that most people on this site have members or former members of their families serving in the forces and then you come along and suggest that we should all wear a white poppy well sorry I want to remember lads that I know who have lost their lives,  if you want to wear your white poppy go off and do your own thing without bringing Remembrance day into disrepute, I'm very proud of serving my country for six years, go off and have a go,   

[OllieC]

I made a joke about your manure, Smithy, nothing else... stop being so paranoid & stop hijacking this thread. I don't have a problem with you or most of your posts, just the ones that are more anger than substance.

A coupla points:
I haven't suggested you should all wear a white poppy, I'm just interested to know what people think. White poppies have been around since 1933, and the original group have repeatedly tried to help the Royal Legion.

My family didn't run off & become Quakers - they had been Quakers since the start of the movement several hundred years earlier. They believe that there is something of God in everyone and that no person has the right to take life. I agree with this so no, would probably not fight if there was a war, especially WW1 which was an astonishing waste of life. WW2 is a bit harder, but of course is not where the red poppies started.

[Mr Smith]

OC, I do apologise for replying to your last post I hope I'm not hijacking this thread, but can I suggest that whenever you are in the Ramsgate area you visit the museum on the harbour front, they have there graffiti taken from the WW1 military prison camps that interned  conscientious objectors very chilling when you read their views, 

[Si D]

I wear a red poppy not to glorify war or anything like that but just as a sign of respect to all of those brave people who were the victims of war.  Not just the soldiers/sailors/airmen, but those in supporting occupations, like the Bevan boys, and those who were affected in other ways such as the victims of air raids.  Both sexes, all ages, and not just the Brits.  this includes OllicC's relatives who might have suffered terribly when helping the Jewish children.

But I don't wear it to glorify war, or to defend war.  I think that even the most staunch supporter o our armed forces and great military traditions would find it hard to justify the massive loss of lives in WW1.  If things go badly in Iraq future generations might end up saying the same things - not because of any lack of effort on the part of our service men and women, but because the politicians (on all sides) dug us into a hole so deep that even our armed forces can't get us out.

I think that many white poppy wearers might view things in the same way - they have great respect the victims of war but, in several cases, not the war itself.

Problem is that the meaning of the white poppy has not yet been well broadcast. Although it might be worn for the best of reasons there are still plenty out there that might feel hurt when they see someone wearing the white poppy.  It is for this reason that I go for red.

Now, in a few cases I'm sure that some people intentionally take offense at the white poppy just because they can.  But in most I feel it is just genuine misunderstanding and that in a civilised, calm and friendly discussion that both sides ought to be able to see and sympathise with the other's point of view.  However, having such a discussion with every person who might not yet fully understand the white poppy is far beyond my capability and so I shall continue with the red poppy so as not to cause unintentional offence.

[Hyacinth]

I'd like an acknowledgement of all those whom war has blighted...loss of life during bombing, etc., loss of expectations of a normal life one believes one will have, etc.etc.etc.....it goes on and on and on.

And I embrace the Quaker ethos, live in a Quaker society...but no! I'm not a signed-up Quaker....(me stay silent during a Meeting??) ::)

I don't like the white poppy idea, simply because of its links to the white feather, as has already been mentioned.

So, I'd propose, along with the red poppy and its specific meaning, a surround of rosemary. Rosemary for Remembrance....an all-embracing symbol.

In fact, I might start a trend 8)

(modified only because of an Aberrant Apostrophe- Ol, forgive me for I have Sinned..)

[OllieC]

The guys who started the white poppies originally suggested something far more tasteful than an alternative poppy - to get rid of Haig's name from the middle of the poppy & replace it with "peace". Since Haig was commander in chief during the Battle of the Somme - allowing the death of 58,000 British troops, I can see what they were getting at. The Royal Legion didn't want this & the white poppy was born.

[Froglegs]

Not a chance I can just see me turning up on parade next month  with a white poppy I will end up having it shoved down my throat I find the very thought of white poppies being a total insult to our brave servicemen and women, 

The sinsult is not the white Poppy's the insult is to the fallen soldiers because we have learned nothing the bloodshed go's on." Lest we forget" no chance of that is there, as Ollie as said the death of soldiers and civilians go's up daily,but hey that's OK because one day a year we put on a poppy to make it somehow OK. Putting on a white poppy is not an insult to the brave dead of past wars but the hope of no more future wars.

[trinity]

maby we should all remember that remembrance day is to commemorate the end of a war not the beginning and that the poppies are not to glorify war. but but are a a way for the British legion to help the families of those who have died and those who are injured.
I don't like the Idea of war but I am glad my Grandad was willing to fight for our county in WW2  (he was in a reserved occupation and did not have to fight) as I know Germany is a very different place now but I an sure that if they had won WW2 some or even all of the Nazi rules and laws would be still in place. which would not be to bad for me I am white have blond hair blues eyes and am physically healthy, but then again as my Dad was born physically disabled if some of those laws where in place he would not have been able to have children so I would not be hear any way so even thought I think most war (or any type of violence) wrong I still thing in the right (or would that be wrong?) situation I has a place in our very imperfect world
so I will be wearing my red poppy

PS If  you simplify war to a one to one level if some one was hitting me (or one of my family) with a base ball bat I would defend myself ! but if Fred and John where having a punch up would I get involved ? probably not.

but then that's just my opinion and everyone is entitled to there's and with a subject like war now one can really be wrong or right it is just a matter of perspective