Author Topic: Problem with responsibility (Read 9628 times)

curly kale · « **on:** July 08, 2007, 16:31:45 »

Hi,

I hope you can help. I have a 'situation' here which is getting unpleasant.

My allotment neighbour has 10+ allotments all adjoining which she calls her 'field' for keeping her horses on and claims that she *bought* the field off of the official tenant. Her 'field' is slap bang in the middle of a large area of veg/chicken type allotments. The boundary fencing to the 'field' is rickety in places but better in others - it seems to be fixed only when its actually fallen down. The horses are nice but are well known for kicking the fences and have got out several times before. In accordance with the rules of the allotments she has a double layer of fencing/tin between her land and mine but only one layer between her 'field' and the lane serving all the allotments - and the horses are escaping in to the lane.

Since April the horses have got out twice and have trampled all over my veg allotment - lucky for me the damage wasn't as bad as it could have been - probably only a fifth of my plants were damaged. The have gotten out and damaged other people's allotments but, with the damage to mine, she has had to admit that her horses dit it because there were witnesses and photographs taken. The next day she offered to pay for the damage, which I refused, and apologised. I said I didn't want any money but that, as this was the second time, could she please reinforce the boundary by putting a second, more secure, fence inside the first one or replace the whole thing with something a bit more substantial - which she refused to do - because the horses are (she says) being let out by a member of the allotment committee so putting additional fencing would be a waste of time.

What do I do now? I know that it doesn't matter whose letting them out - she is responsible for her animals but she's saying that I'm playing in to her enemy's hands if I kick up a fuss. And it does seem a bit odd that there was someone on hand with a camera to take pictures of the horses being out and the damage - at 8am on a Friday morning.

Something I forgot. She is a very violent, mouthy type woman who threatened me when she found out that the damage had been reported to the committee - which I actually didn't do, the person who found the horses loose did that - I don't think she really meant the threat, but the words were said.

All I want to do is grow my veg in peace but with the way things are going I have to do something and I don't know what. Its making me nervous to go up there but I have to because I've got chooks on my other allotment.

Help!!!!

Jeannine · « **Reply #1 on:** July 08, 2007, 16:48:53 »

Well this is a bad situation and I feel really bad for you. The bit that confuses me is the bit about 'she bought the land off the tenant'. How can one buy something off a tenant, surely a tenant is only renting themselves, and from who!! I think this is where I would start ans the situation is clearly unacceptable.

I would find out who the owner is and find out the legality of her claim.

It would seem you are not on your own as other folks are not happy too.

There may be something in the lease regarding use of land too.

It would also seem to me it his her problem to keep the animals contained and any damage they do while it is being settled she should be responsible for, I would accept it and give her a receipt keeping a copy for what is was for and why. It might come in handy later as she is clearly accepting resposibility if she provides compensation.

What if, they escaped an d trampled a person or caused an accident,

This surely has to be stopped.

That is as far as my thinking goes.

XX Jeannine

curly kale · « **Reply #2 on:** July 08, 2007, 16:59:58 »

I don't really understand how she could buy the allotments either - but she says she paid £500 for them and has laid out more since to replace bits of fence, etc. I suspect she bought the use of the land and the things on it (stables, etc) from the official tenant which, on my reading of the tenancy agreement, is against the rules. Hard to prove though. Nobody seems to know who the official tenant is - all they know is that the horses' owner is noted on the tenancy agreement as 'partner'.

We're all allowed to keep animals as long as we have the Committee's approval - presumably she must have otherwise they'd have removed her by now.

I've told her I don't want her money - it isn't so much the financial value rather the amount of time, love and effort I've put in - its soul destroying to find healthy plants trampled.

I agree completely about what would happen if the horses hurt someone. I often work up there on my own and our allotments are in the furthest corner of a large number of allotments, much too far away to be heard if I shouted for help.

Yes, I agree it needs to be stopped - I just don't know how. She told me that if the Committee try and get her off she will fight it through the Courts because (she says) its a personal vendetta against her by one of the Committee members.

But I'm the one thats suffering!

sarah · « **Reply #3 on:** July 08, 2007, 17:03:24 »

i completey agree. do not be bullied. she is on very sticky ground and i cant think that any other allotment site would allow her to keep horses. regardles of that, you have a right to your crops not being damaged by other peoples animals. its difficult with mouthy bullish people but you must stand your ground. if she threatens you then threaten her back with the police.
i would certainly raise it with the committee as i dint think she can have a leg to stand on.
aaarrrggghh, i cant bear people who have no respect for other peoples space/belongings/rights etc. it makes my blood boil. youare just a normal person going about your lawful business growing veg, she does not have the right to disregard your crops. if her horses damage your crops again you must threaten action. you are in the right and she is in the wrong.
as jeannine says, what if they caused harnm to a person or got onto the road and caused an accident there. read your lease and get your committee on to it. they have a responsibilityto you. good luck :-\

manicscousers · « **Reply #4 on:** July 08, 2007, 17:05:48 »

hiya, ck..are they council run allotments, parish ?
whoever they are rented off needs to know what's going on, if you don't want the aggravation, send an anonymous letter to them ..she needs to be stopped

Tee Gee · « **Reply #5 on:** July 08, 2007, 18:07:04 »

This is typical of things that have been allowed to go on by various 'apathetic' committees my suggestion is write to these people http://www.nsalg.org.uk/ and state your case. At least you will have a recognized body to point you in the right direction.

With due respect to everybody here that is trying to help we can only give an opinion at least these people might be able to give you 'legal advice'

Si D · « **Reply #6 on:** July 08, 2007, 19:53:10 »

Why can't she just put up a substantial fence and gate fastened shut with a pad lock? That way if it is someone letting the animals out they'd not be able to get the gate open, or at least it would prove that someone was doing it if the padlock was bolt cropped.

Trevor_D · « **Reply #7 on:** July 08, 2007, 21:00:29 »

Are your allotments council-owned or self-governing? We are the latter and allowed to have livestock. On the whole. council ones aren't. But I'm not sure that anyone can "buy" a bit - certainly not the middle bit - of an allotment site. We all rent.

We have a stables on-site and they rent an area that was once allotments as paddocks. But they pay the same as us and they are subject to the same rules. My plot is surrounded on two sides by their paddock; I do my best best to maintain my side and if there are problems the stables do their bit too.

Forget the "mouthy" bit - insecure people often are. Sort out the legalities & go from there.

Robert_Brenchley · « **Reply #8 on:** July 09, 2007, 08:46:41 »

Raise it formally, in writing, with both the committee and the site owner. After that, if you get nowhere, try the RSPCA (if the horses are escaping, they could get onto the road or anything), local councillors, MP's, the local press, anyone you can think of. There's no possible reason for you to put up with it.

curly kale · « **Reply #9 on:** July 09, 2007, 09:17:12 »

Goodness, thank you for all your replies - very much appreciated - makes me feel not so alone in all this.

Tee Gee, thank you for that link - I'll be using it if things escalate any further.

I'm not sure but I think that the land the allotments is on is owned by the Local Authority but they are governed by the elected Allotment Committee. Which, of course, is okay normally but, according to this woman, its the Chairman of the Allotment Committee plus a few of his relatives (who are also committee members) who want to get her off.

So far I haven't given in to her bullying but it is very difficult when someone is shouting at you right in your face. She just doesn't listen - she hears what she wants to hear. If what she is saying about the Committee is correct then I do feel a bit sorry for her - even though she is such a nasty piece of work.

About the substantial fence, etc - when she came to apologise and offered me money for my damaged plants I told her that I accepted her apology but wouldn't accept the money - but that her apology didn't make the situation 'better' - the only way that would happen would be if she were to do her best to keep the horses secure by double skinning the existing fence or putting up a new one. She said that, because the fence in question is next to the lane, that she doesn't HAVE to double skin it because, according to the rules, she only has to double skin fences between her 'field' and other peoples' allotments. I said that I agreed she didn't HAVE to do it but that it would be the RIGHT thing to do in view of the damage her horses are doing each time they get out. That is when it started to get nasty.

I think that if she starts in on me again that I'll do as Robert_Brenchley says and raise the matter in writing - send copies to the horses' owner, the Allotment Committee and the local authority. If that doesn't work then I'll try the NSALG and/or the Police. I'm just worried that by taking it further she'll get her own back by damaging my veg or poisoning my chickens or something.

BTW, theres no chance of the horses getting on to a road. Our access lane has got a locking gate at the end of it so the horses could only get on to the twenty or so allotments leading off of it.

I'm dreading going up there today but I have to because my chooks need feeding. She seems to be hiding behind hedges, waiting for me so she can start shouting again. :(

busy_lizzie · « **Reply #10 on:** July 09, 2007, 09:42:24 »

I feel so sorry for you curly kale. It is just not fair this woman should spoil your allotment for you. She is making you dread going up there, when you should be enjoying it. I hate this sort of bullying.

I concur with all the other advice, and I think you need to sort it out once and for all. Please don't let it drag on for your sake, and the rest of your allotment neighbours who are also suffering. Let us know how things work out. busy_lizzie

growmore · « **Reply #11 on:** July 09, 2007, 09:50:38 »

This sounds bang out of order ..Even self governing sites have to abide by codes of practice Laid down by the local authority ..We are a self governing society with 6 allotment sites under Doncaster council but we have to abide by their rules..
Poultry, rabbits,pigeons etc are allowed under their ruling ,,
But horses and goats need special permission from the "COUNCIL" not your commitee ..
I am presuming the landords of your allotments are Doncaster council ..
if so here is where you need to contact .This can all be done discreetly..

Mail: customer.services@doncaster.gov.uk | Telephone: 01302 736000 | Minicom: 01302 736252 | Fax: 01302 737510
Address: Allotments, PO Box 257, The Council House, College Road, Doncaster, DN1 1RN. ....

..

emmy1978 · « **Reply #12 on:** July 09, 2007, 10:10:18 »

That is unbelievable!!! Can't add any more advice to that already given except to say do not be intimidated by her. People like her are all mouth and no trousers. Tell her what she has to say is irrelevant and she'd be better off finding herself a solicitor. The b****!!

curly kale · « **Reply #13 on:** July 09, 2007, 15:41:58 »

Thank you for your replies, as I said before, they really do help by making me feel not so alone in all this.

Growmore, thanks for the Doncaster Council information - it looks like I might need it.

As I thought, she was waiting for me. She gave me a sealed envelope which contained photocopies of half a dozen letters she has sent to the Committee today about various horse/allotment/meeting matters - and on reading them I found that one of them was about me. She has decided that I'm a member of the Committee which is why I'm against her (because, apparently, all the gardening allotment holders and Committee members are against the horse people). She is demanding a meeting to discuss me being suspended and/or removed as a Committee member - should be a very short but interesting meeting, considering I'm not not ever have been a member of any committee anywhere... ever! I've only had an allotment here since March.... She really is very strange and getting really quite scary.

My husband is all for us just selling the chooks and abandoning the veg he says all this is spoiling his enjoyment of the allotments. Sad. :'( I don't want to do that - my husband works long hours and its been me thats dug most of that allotment with my own fair little hands.

I've written back to her, copied it to the Committee, telling her I'm not a Committee member - not that it would make any difference because all I want is for her to keep her horses securely. She is obviously very fond of letters so I hope it works.

emmy1978 · « **Reply #14 on:** July 09, 2007, 16:20:18 »

Hi CK, have you posted that letter to her yet because I would be tempted to go to the meeting as if you ARE a committee member and let the good times roll. ;D Imagine her face when she finds out you're not on it? Ha!

Let her go for it and stand by your lottie. I can't believe any lottie committee allow horses on the land. They need their heads read.

Give her enough rope...

Cuke · « **Reply #15 on:** July 10, 2007, 14:14:21 »

and she wonders why so many people want to get rid of her????

I really hope you can get it sorted, it sounds like bullying plain and simple and shouldn't be tollerated. I say go to the meeting and let her make a fool of herself, sounds like everyone there will be on your side anyway and there's strength in numbers...

hairyhippy · « **Reply #16 on:** July 10, 2007, 19:39:49 »

How about a big fence around your garden?

grawrc · « **Reply #17 on:** July 10, 2007, 20:35:59 »

Citizen's advice bureau?

ugly gourd · « **Reply #18 on:** July 10, 2007, 20:43:14 »

somebody yelling and being threatening like her normally feel insecure because they know there not 100 % in the right good luck and dont chuck it all in when this is all sorted you will be glad you stood up to her

davyw1 · « **Reply #19 on:** July 10, 2007, 21:28:21 »

What you need to do is find out what your constitution says and get hold of a set of rules for your site. If possible ask to read the minutes of past meetings to SE what it says about horses on the site and fence maintenance.
Is her stable made of brick or wood? If it is brick then it is a permanent structure for which she needs planning permission.
Remind her that the Allotment Act states that an allotment is For persons to grow vegetables for themselves and their families, not to keep horses on.
If she make a comment about you keeping hens it was past last year that you are permitted to keep hens on an allotment, nothing in it about horses.

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Author Topic: Problem with responsibility (Read 9628 times)