Topic: Biodynamics

[Obelixx]

TR - I don't think you can call something that has such an important effect on tides "a weak force" and the comparable amounts of water in plants and soil are so much lighter and therefore easier to influence.  I can see why you're sceptical buy have to remind you that

a) it's hard to prove a negative so you shoudn't in your turn make sweeping statements about it being a load of balls.
b) nothing is ever scientifically proven till scientists ask the right questions and that means having the imagination, interest and the funding to do so
c) original science was based on observation and here I remind you that the whole seasonal crop sowing and harvesting thing began because of observation of solar and lunar cycles which affected agriculture.  Experimentation to prove a theory came later.   
d) Look how long it took to convince scientists and medics that smoking caused cancer or that CO2 emissions cause global warming!  It took a while to get the experiments and observation done to provide the proof.   There is no current financial benefit to agri industry in funding research into something which will reduce farmers' and gardeners' needs for all their lovely products so we're just going to have to go with personal opinions and willingness to try this sytem in our own gardens - or not, as the case may be.

[trojanrabbit]

<sigh>
Sorry Obbelix, I've been rather less than clear  :-[ - I assumed too many things were "obvious" because I knew what I meant; it's a common trap into which I fell.

As regards the zodiac business: I am NOT at all dismissing the potential benefits of planting/cutting times - this I can see reasons for (as I indicated) and would really like to see some decent investigation and refinement of the theory. The spherical comment was meant with regard to horoscopes - as a say that's my belief.

As regards forces, gravity is the weakest of all and it's magnitude is dependant upon both masses involved, and other factors have much stronger effects upon the movement of small volumes of liquid.
By way of a demonstration, pour a glass of whiskey, liquor, or other highly alcoholic drink; if you swirl the glass then fairly shortly you should see that there are droplets running down the side of the glass towards the liquid surface, and yet as they get to the point where they are about to join the rest of your drink, they suddenly jump back from the surface as though they have dipped a toe in the sea and found it's very cold!  8) This is caused by a difference in surface tension telling gravity to get knotted because the drop has a very slightly different alcohol concentration to the rest of your drink - each droplet will usually hop several times before eventually becoming similar enough to enter the bulk liquid.
Now consider that similar things happen in plant capilliaries and soil but the same surface tensions will be acting upon less than a one hundredth of the weight of water...

As regards scientific funding, well, yes we are often industry's bitches, BUT there is still some money about (in Europe at least) without commercial ties. Indeed some of the evidence to which I refered comes from it and was published in reputable scientific journals - we will get there little by little. And you really shouldn't diss scientists on the whole global warming or cancer business - it's more often politicians and public you need to swing, for which you need acurate media not sensationalism!  >:(

I am so, so sorry! This has all gone a bit rant-ish!
best wishes
PB

[Robert_Brenchley]

Not only that, but I find it hard to see soil water moving measurably under the influence of a force that is not only weak, but also rotates in a circle roughly once in 25 hours.

[Obelixx]

Hi TR - No rant intended and I wasn't having a go at scientists about cancer etc - just about people not believing stuff until full proof was thrust down their throat.  Sometimes observation and personal experience is enough.   I have come across a lot of scientists who dismiss anything not proven but then forget how long it took to prove the earth goes round the sun, blood circulates in the body etc.   Just because it hasn't been explained doesn't mean it ain't so.

The basic form of lunar gardening simply follows waxing and waning.  Then there's one that divides its cycle into 4 even quarters for various activities.  There's another more complex one after that and then the zodiac thing which began in ancient Egyptian times as a result of observing what worked best when the moon was in certain constellations. 

 I don't pretend to understand it but it seems to work and if I get better results using it then it's good enough for me.   I no longer understand how car engines work since all this electronic  and computerised stuff came in but I know it works if I turn on the ignition and use the pedals in the right sequence an dremember to fill up with fuel.

As it happens I teach English to a bunch of agricultural scientists here who are involved in various EU funded research projects so I shall ask them about it next week and tell you what they say about how easy/hard it is to get funding.    One or two are also keen gardeners.

[poderosa]

Thanks to all the information regarding biodynamics. I will be giving it a go this year. G

[Obelixx]

As promised, I mentioned it to the agri scientists today and they were highly amused and very scoffy.  I then explained the 4 different kinds of lunar gardening and they accepted there might be a difference between waxing and waning moon phases.  They predictably were very intellectually superior about the astrology thing but agree that biodynamic principles are worthy of research. 

One of them has offered to hunt around EU science projects to see if there is a current study and he will also sow broad beans on Valentine's Day and the following week to see if there is any difference.  This is a generous gesture as he doesn't really like broad beans.  He's also willing to try other crops later in the year.

I pointed out that as oil supplies will soon run out there will be no more oil based pesticides and fertilisers to be had so alternatives would be needed - or a better farming and gardening system.  Global warming may well reduce rainfall in many parts so any system which maximises plant access to available water was worth trying.  They agreed and suggested I design a study and they would ask for funding!!!  Very funny!

[supersprout]

Good for you Obbelix 8)

[Tee Gee]

Like Trojan I am a bit sceptical.

I would like to try a test here in A4A

Who is harvesting any of the following now (January)?

Angelica  , Aubergines (Eggplant)  , Beetroot  , Borage  , Broad Beans (Fava)  , Brussels Sprouts  , Cabbages , Caraway  , Carrots  , Cauliflowers  , Celeriac  , Celery  , Chervil  , Chicory  , Chinese Cabbage  , Chives  , Dill  , Florence Fennel  , French Beans  , French Tarragon  , Garlic  , Horseradish  , Kale  , Leeks  , Lettuce  , Onions  , Parsnips  , Peas  , Pumpkins  , Radish  , Rhubarb  , Runner Beans  , Salsify  , Scorzonera  , Seakale  , Spring Onions  , Squashes  , Swedes  , Sweet Peppers  , Swiss Chard  , Tomatoes  , Turnips

I have highlighted what I have but things such as aubergines and sweet peppers no way.

As far as planting/sowing is concerned that might be a different matter.

What do you think?

I did a bit of research on it a few years ago ( http://tinyurl.com/yx3xcw )  In practice it got a bit complicated when it came to waxing & waning, now I just stick to my almanac. 

This has taken twenty plus years to produce so perhaps unbeknown to me it fits in with the moon phases. ??? ::)

[Barnowl]

We're harvesting Dwarf Green Curly Kale, Cavolo Nero(Kale), Celeriac, Winter Lettuces (Bronze Arrow, Merveille de Quatre Saisons) and some rather feeble Leeks (also Jerusalem Artichokes but you didn't ask about those).

[Obelixx]

Jerusalem artichokes, leeks, curly kale and Swiss chard.  I have some Savoy cabbages maturing too.  In a normal winter it gets too cold for anything else.

I shall see what the Thursday group of agri scientists says.   One of them is a keen gardener too.