Topic: London shooting

[adam04]

well, what do you think of it?? were the police right to shoot?? has an innocent life been wasted??

weel, he had nothing to do with the bombings, but why did he run?? apparantly his visa had expired but his family said it wasnt? so why run if there was nothing to hide?? i think the police were absolutly correct to fire. he wa asked to stop and instead he ran, jumping ticket barriers to get onto a train.

now, the police will be blamed and the whole issue about the bombings and the mets good work recently will be forgotten. even though, the police were doing their jobs, trying to save more lives.

[SpeedyMango]

There's some comment in the "More London Bombings" thread.

Maybe he was a petty thief or a drug dealer and ran because he thought that was why they were after him. If he was given the usual verbal warning before being shot at, he should have understood - he was Brazilian, hence he spoke Portugese, and the Portugese word for police is "polícias". He would have known what it meant.

However, I have heard on another forum that the new police 'rules of engagement' for suspected suicide bombers it to shoot to kill without giving a warning first. If this is true then it is a scary prospect, but makes sense if you consider what a bomber might do if he thinks they're on to him. If this policy is more widely known then perhaps people won't be as daft as to run towards a crowded train when challenged.

It does seem odd that the police followed this guy right into a tube station before taking any action. Surely they could have stopped him beforehand, somewhere where there were less people who may have been at risk from a bomb. It's a terrible mistake, and one I hope isn't repeated.  However, we should not castigate our emergency services on the ground for trying to keep us safe. The policeman who shot the guy should not be blamed, it was whoever was responsible for gathering or interpreting the intelligence who was at fault.

[wardy]

I think it's sad how life is changing for the worse in this country.  People who live amonst us don't seem to share our values but enjoy our freedoms.  Where will it all end?

[aquilegia]

It's all this nonsense about how the police say it's not a "shoot-to-kill" policy that gets me. Their policy is if it is a suspected suicide bomber, they shoot them in the head incase the "bomber" has explosives on their chest where they would normally shoot. But doctors say a head shot will kill someone. So it is shoot to kill.

It frightens me.

It means anyone can be killed for just looking suspicious. Sounds like the first step towards this country becoming a police state.

And quite frankly I believe that whether or not the person was a bomber, they should not be killed. This is capital punishment without a trial. It doesn't matter whether the person is innocent or not they should not be executed.

I understand the need to protect the public. But surely leaving it until the "suspect" is actually on a tube train is not protecting the public.

Five shots to the head seems incredibly excessive. To me it speaks of the police taking the law into their own hands and using brutal tactics that remind me of the SS.

I carry a bulky black backpack (which incidently contains a lunchbox) but I don't feel quite paranoid enough to be a target for gun-ho police officers - I don't exactly look much like a muslim fundamentalist!

[kelso]

Why can't people understand, there is no such thing as  a "shoot to wound" policy. If a soldier or policeman makes the decision to open fire on you, he fully intends to kill you. :o

[Kepouros]

I am fully in agreement with the `Shoot to Kill`policy where suspected terrorists and suicide bombers refuse to heed police warnings, but there are two things about it which puzzle me:-

1. When the Tory government implemented such a policy against the IRA in Northern Ireland the whole of the Labour Party condemned it.

2. If a householder kills a burglar or mugger who is threatening him with a weapon he will almost certainly be arrested and charged with either murder or manslaughter.

So just what makes the present policy different?

[SpeedyMango]

Five shots to the head seems incredibly excessive. To me it speaks of the police taking the law into their own hands and using brutal tactics that remind me of the SS.

See, this is the problem. You are blaming the chap who had to decide, in a split second, how to stop a suspect (who he had been told might have a bomb) who didn't stop when challenged as most people would do, but started running towards a packed train. It wasn't police brutality (and how do they remind you of the SS, exactly? Please don't compare those atrocities to this one tragic mistake). It was an ordinary human being faced with an awful decision, who most likely panicked, but still actually ran towards a man he thought was carrying a bomb, with the intent of somehow stopping him from setting it off, instead of running the other way. I doubt I could have done that.

The problem is not the tactics, it's the strategy - it's the bad intelligence that led to someone being put into that awful position. Hopefully it won't happen again, and hopefully the poor bugger who made that awful mistake on the spur of the moment is getting some help to deal with what he's done.

[Robert_Brenchley]

Hopefully it was a mistake, as you say. It could also be a case of somebody who'd been given permission to shoot people, and just had to do it, or someone with his head full of stereotypes about immigrants. Probably, we'll never know.

[Derek]

The rules are there...well publicised.

If someone shouted to me 'Armed Police...stop'  my hands would be reaching for the stars pronto believe me.

The choice is simple...obey the laws of the land whatever they are.  We are in difficult and sad times and they ain't going to get better.

The choice is do you take one life or risk possibly many more killed or maimed... that's a hell of a choice to have to make.

The UK is an open Country....wide open.. so here are the consequencies folks

Derek

[aquilegia]

You see that's the problem. Part of the tactics with pursuing suspected suicide bombers is that the police DO NOT shout a warning as this would give the "bomber" a chance to blow themselves up. How could someone who is being pursued by what would look to anyone like a gang of men (Ie - plain clothes police men) NOT have the urge to run? I know I would be frightened of being attacked and would probably run.

Why does it remind me of the SS? Well I do not see that we should only feel that it is wrong and tragic when thousands of people die. If one person is killed that is an enormous tragedy to me.

This is not what I believe living in a democracy is about. This is what happens in police states.

(I understand the police are doing a very difficult job and one that I would not want to do. But I'm also an idealist and a humanist and I cannot help but feel enraged when those who are supposed to be protecting us make such a huge error as ended someone's life.)

Rant over.

(hmm - maybe I'd better stop reading this thread before I truely get enraged...!)

[Robert_Brenchley]

If we allow the police to do stuff like this without holding them accoutable, then we reduce ourselves to the same level as the terrorists. That's the big danger I see, especially when I see the headlines in certain tabloids! If the police really shouted a warning, wouldn't they have made a statement to that effect by this time, given the criticism they're facing?

[adam04]

Part of the tactics with pursuing suspected suicide bombers is that the police DO NOT shout a warning

The police did give a warning though! thats when he ran!

[Roy Bham UK]

:o Where did you hear that Adam? and did he understand it I wonder (being a foreigner)? Or did he think he was being chased by a mugger till he was shot in the head 6 times by a person who was told he may have a bomb and kill many people?

Not quite cut and dried? ???

[daveandtara]

the police did make a statement.
they said that the man was followed some distance (including a busride) while they tried to decide the best course of action. when he neared the tube station the order was given not to allow him to enter because he could be lost in the throng of people and board a train.
the police called to him to stop and he ran, not towards the safety of uniformed staff instead vaulting over the turnstiles and half running, half jumping down an escalator to the platform.
the police followed, shouting 'police, get out get out' to the terrified public. they caught up with him as a train pulled in. faced with the prospect of a large number of innocents the officer grabbed the guy and shot 8 times.

[daveandtara]

by the way, the brazillian for police sounds almost identical to the english so he would have understood.
he was wearing a large woolen 'duffle' style overcoat on a hot day.
police were searching for a bomber seen leaving one of the crimescenes with wires protruding from his shirt that they believed might be explosives.
today they announced that his visa was out of date and had been 'clumsily' forged.

[adam04]

:o Where did you hear that Adam? and did he understand it I wonder (being a foreigner)? Or did he think he was being chased by a mugger till he was shot in the head 6 times by a person who was told he may have a bomb and kill many people?

Not quite cut and dried? ???

There you go dave (or tara) have put the full story down!

[Robert_Brenchley]

I wonder. If the passport was forged how come he could travel on it? Wearing a coat on a hot day is typical of immigrants; my own family do it.

[adam04]

I wonder. If the passport was forged how come he could travel on it? Wearing a coat on a hot day is typical of immigrants; my own family do it.

it was a forged visa, not passport!

[Robert_Brenchley]

The same question still applies! Even if it was forged, it's not an offence which should carry the death penalty, especially extra-judicially. If that sort of stuff can be accepted, then I see no moral difference between the police and the terrorists.

[daveandtara]

no, but the visa was not the reason he was shot. it may however, explain why he ran from the police. i am not denying that this was  a tragic mistake, nor am i saying that this man did anything for which he deserved to be shot.
i do believe that the policeman acted in a brave way to try and avert a massacre such as occured in london earlier this month.