rotation

[1066]

Jazzidoodle - I understand your confusion!! And so far I don't think anyone has actually answered your question. It's a matter of following 1 crop on to the next, and not thinking in full years as all the books say year 1, year 2 and so on, but like you I plant a crop in a bed as soon as it is available.

From what I understand about rotation, is that certain crops don't like manure (roots) and certain crops don't like lime (potatoes), so it is a matter of keeping these apart and not for eg planting carrots in a bed which has been heavily manured (i.e. where potatoes have grown) or not planting potatoes where the bed has been limed (or mushroom compost added) so where you have been growing cabbages for instance. There are heaps of other reasons for rotation, this is just 1 of them. Does this help?

You can simplify your rotations by sorting your crops into these major plant families:

• Onion family: onions, garlic, leeks and shallots

• Carrot family: carrots, celery, parsley and parsnips

• Sunflower family: lettuce, sunflowers and a few other leafy greens

• Cabbage family: cabbage, broccoli, Brussels sprouts, kale and many other leafy greens, as well as rutabagas and kohlrabi

• Spinach family: beets and chard

• Cucumber family: cucumbers, melons, squash and gourds

• Pea family: peas and beans

• Grass family: corn, wheat, oats and rye

• Tomato family: tomatoes, peppers, eggplant and potatoes

Plainleaf - that is a really helpful list thank you. Now a question or 2 or 3!
Most rotation stuff is based on 4 year cycles. And what I'd like to know is how do you order your rotation. As I say most rotation plans have 4 or 5 family groups, usually in this order:
1) Potatoes, 2) Legumes, 3) Brassicas, 4) Corn & Squash, and 5) Roots & Onions

So where in this rotation would you add the salads, and the greens?

Thanks
1066

[chriscross1966]

I'd suggest you want to extend your rotation to keep 3 full years between things from the same rotation group if at all possible. Luckily in the UK there are several "exotic" crops that have no real pests (beyond the generalist ones that attack everything). Use things like squashes and other cucurbits, sweetcorn, etc  as parts of the rotation to extend it enough to allow for double cropping. You can also split the alliums out of the root vegetable rotation where they normally reside, and beans don't need to rotate. If  you limed for the kale then don't put spuds in next year, they like a higher ph.

That leaves me with a rotation scheme that has:
Roots (celeriac, carrots, parsnips, hamburg parsley, beetroots)
Brassicas (cabbages, kale, swedes, kohl rabi, turnips)
POtatoes and tomatoes
Alliums (onions, shallots, leeks)
Beans and peas
Squashes and other cucurbits
Salady things and real wierd stuff like Oca if I'm growing it

Beans don't need to rotate generally, ditto the cucubits,  but they both want lots of manure dug in and the squashes want a lot of feeding too. Use those two to follow on from overwintering crops or to occupy ground that might not get otherwise used.... really all you need top di is make  sure brassicas, roots and alilums don't go into the same bed within a couple of years of another one of the same group... luckily I like tomatoes, squashes and beans

chrisc

[Jeannine]

Actually it IS a good list, I always mean well and end up only half doing it, thank you Plainleaf.I will print this one off.

XX Jeannine

[grawrc]

1066 I agree with what you say but would add that preventing build up of pests and diseases is also partly why we do it.

I have read up a lot about this over the years and have concluded (see Joy Larkcom's books for comments on this) that it doesn't matter too much what order you rotate in provided you do rotate crops. Just about every book/ article I have read suggests a different order of rotation and gives good reasons for doing it.

A basic rotation (see RHS website) is over 3 or 4 years.

I do as follows:
year 1 potatoes followed by squash/ beans/ spinach/ sweetcorn etc (things that don't mind where they go).
year 2 roots and spinach/ beets - these continue more or less all year with some cloche assistance over winter
year 3 brassicas - all year
year 4 peas and beans followed by autumn sown onions, garlic, shallots and summer sown leeks
year 5 onions etc

it has worked well for me over the last few years. Potatoes get manure, brassica bed gets manure in the autumn before planting (i.e. as the roots come out) and lime or mushroom compost in the spring), everything else gets dalek compost.

My successional plantings tend to be things that aren't too vulnerable to nasties, i.e. things like lettuce or spinach or beans or quick crops that aren't in the ground too long like kohl rabi, spring onions, turnips etc.

Additionally I don't plant cabbage family where next year's brassica bed will be or e.g. leeks where I will be planting onions.

[1066]

You know Grawrc, after typing the last post I went and got Joy's book and read up the relevant chapter, and it makes so much sense. and you are completely right about pests and diseases, but after this years trials and tribulations with my squash, I really need to think about how these fit into a rotation plan. So far I've been lucky to avoid some of the major nasties like white rot. I just keep moving the spuds, garlic and brassicas around, and hope for the best  Then this year I've added lime to the brassica beds, so I need to keep the spuds well away.....

Anyway back to Joy Larkcolm: -
"Rotation Summary
•   Don’t lose sleep over rotation! Rotate as much as you can
•   At the very least avoid planting vegetables from the same group in the same area in consecutive seasons
•   Organise your garden in small beds to increase flexibility

It may be useful to group together vegetables that –
Mature roughly at the same time
Will be sown or planted at roughly the same time

Typical groupings would be –
Spring sown salad crops such as carrots, spring onions, lettuce
Crops which overwinter in the ground such as leeks, celeriac, kohl rabi, brussel sprouts and kale
Half-hardy summer vegetables such as courgettes, tomatoes, sweetcorn and peppers"

I'm going to ponder over your list now, and see how it would work for me.........

1066 

[Allotment-junkie]

then for the purposes of rotation do I consider the bed this year to have grown potatoes, or leeks and kale? actually you not describing crop rotation. you describing secession planting
which is another dynamic entirely.

this link might help about crop rotation the plant that need to be rotated and those the need it less.
http://www.downsizer.net/Projects/Growing_food/Crop_rotation/

learn how to spell
SUCCESSION   

[cleo]

All I can add is to echo the phrase `don`t lose sleep over rotation` On anything less than a field it does little to prevent the spread of disease.

Think more about the nutritional needs of crops and just do your best

[plainleaf]

cleo very true about rotation not being a  large factor in spreading disease in garden.
the biggest factors in spreading diseases in the garden are  the gardener,tools , bought plants
insects and seeds.

[pigeonseed]

I should think that sounds right, plainleaf. Within a small plot, our crops are close together anyway, not like farm-scale planting.

They do say strict garden 'hygiene' helps, don't they? I know a lot of experienced gardeners are careful to wash pots and so on, and burning infected leaves when they find them. If you;re able to go to the plot almost everyday, I think that you could be much more careful in removing infected leaves and dealing with problems early on. Those of us who visit less frequently probably find controlling outbreaks more difficult. I guess anyway.

[1066]

I can't remember which garden it was that I visited but they were incredibly hot on hygene, and that impression has stayed with me 

Plainleaf - you didn't answer my question 

You can simplify your rotations by sorting your crops into these major plant families:

• Onion family: onions, garlic, leeks and shallots

• Carrot family: carrots, celery, parsley and parsnips

• Sunflower family: lettuce, sunflowers and a few other leafy greens

• Cabbage family: cabbage, broccoli, Brussels sprouts, kale and many other leafy greens, as well as rutabagas and kohlrabi

• Spinach family: beets and chard

• Cucumber family: cucumbers, melons, squash and gourds

• Pea family: peas and beans

• Grass family: corn, wheat, oats and rye

• Tomato family: tomatoes, peppers, eggplant and potatoes

Plainleaf - that is a really helpful list thank you. Now a question or 2 or 3!
Most rotation stuff is based on 4 year cycles. And what I'd like to know is how do you order your rotation. As I say most rotation plans have 4 or 5 family groups, usually in this order:
1) Potatoes, 2) Legumes, 3) Brassicas, 4) Corn & Squash, and 5) Roots & Onions

So where in this rotation would you add the salads, and the greens?

Thanks
1066

[GodfreyRob]

Jazzidoodle - I understand your confusion!! And so far I don't think anyone has actually answered your question. It's a matter of following 1 crop on to the next, and not thinking in full years as all the books say year 1, year 2 and so on, but like you I plant a crop in a bed as soon as it is available.

From what I understand about rotation, is that certain crops don't like manure (roots) and certain crops don't like lime (potatoes), so it is a matter of keeping these apart and not for eg planting carrots in a bed which has been heavily manured (i.e. where potatoes have grown) or not planting potatoes where the bed has been limed (or mushroom compost added) so where you have been growing cabbages for instance. There are heaps of other reasons for rotation, this is just 1 of them. Does this help?

You can simplify your rotations by sorting your crops into these major plant families:

• Onion family: onions, garlic, leeks and shallots

• Carrot family: carrots, celery, parsley and parsnips

• Sunflower family: lettuce, sunflowers and a few other leafy greens

• Cabbage family: cabbage, broccoli, Brussels sprouts, kale and many other leafy greens, as well as rutabagas and kohlrabi

• Spinach family: beets and chard

• Cucumber family: cucumbers, melons, squash and gourds

• Pea family: peas and beans

• Grass family: corn, wheat, oats and rye

• Tomato family: tomatoes, peppers, eggplant and potatoes

Plainleaf - that is a really helpful list thank you. Now a question or 2 or 3!
Most rotation stuff is based on 4 year cycles. And what I'd like to know is how do you order your rotation. As I say most rotation plans have 4 or 5 family groups, usually in this order:
1) Potatoes, 2) Legumes, 3) Brassicas, 4) Corn & Squash, and 5) Roots & Onions

So where in this rotation would you add the salads, and the greens?

Thanks
1066

To directly answer your question about saladsand greens:

Firstly you don't need to have a group called salads  - treat then as individual crops in families.

You don't need a rigid rotation either - in each of your growing 'beds' just follow one crop with another from a different familiy - this gives you far more flexibility and reduces the amount of dead space that you always end up with using fixed rotations.

The one rule of thumb is not to follow one crop from the same familiy in the same bed for 2 years to avoid any build up of pests/diseases.

All you need is to record somewhere what you have grown in each bed, each year.

[Digeroo]

There used to be strict laid down systems of crop rotation.  The dig for victory systen included one which most people tended to use for a long time.

I used to grow vegetables in my garden and I did not grow onions or potatoes and very few brassicas  So for 25 years my crop rotation has been beans, courgettes,  everything else and carrots with sweetcorn..  I think what is important is to find a system which suits you.   So that the same plant group does not go in the same bed for four or five years.

This year I am growing beans in the same bed two years running and they are not happy so next year it is back to the rotation. 

[springbok]

I can't remember which garden it was that I visited but they were incredibly hot on hygene, and that impression has stayed with me 

Plainleaf - you didn't answer my question 

You can simplify your rotations by sorting your crops into these major plant families:

• Onion family: onions, garlic, leeks and shallots

• Carrot family: carrots, celery, parsley and parsnips

• Sunflower family: lettuce, sunflowers and a few other leafy greens

• Cabbage family: cabbage, broccoli, Brussels sprouts, kale and many other leafy greens, as well as rutabagas and kohlrabi

• Spinach family: beets and chard

• Cucumber family: cucumbers, melons, squash and gourds

• Pea family: peas and beans

• Grass family: corn, wheat, oats and rye

• Tomato family: tomatoes, peppers, eggplant and potatoes

Plainleaf - that is a really helpful list thank you. Now a question or 2 or 3!
Most rotation stuff is based on 4 year cycles. And what I'd like to know is how do you order your rotation. As I say most rotation plans have 4 or 5 family groups, usually in this order:
1) Potatoes, 2) Legumes, 3) Brassicas, 4) Corn & Squash, and 5) Roots & Onions

So where in this rotation would you add the salads, and the greens?

Thanks
1066

1066, as far as I can tell, Plainleaf did answer the question.  Salads and greens are listed under SUNFLOWER Family.  If you clicked on the link supplied, and noticed that the site he actually pointed us all too with his original answer, has 4 pages explaining all about healthy garden, soil and rotation cycles, including listing the groups.

However its more linked to the US than the UK. But helpful never the less.

[1066]

Ah, thanks Bokkie I'd missed the link originally! (I'll go and take a looksie now)

To be honest it's more of a general discussion point for me anyway, and I'm always interested to hear what other people do - you never know what you might learn  And I do strongly believe in listening to others experience, as opposed to just reading books, hence why I enjoy A4A 
Some of the US sites are better for certain kinds of info, but do need a bit of re-interpreting for gardening in the uk, and then others do tend to get too technical for me, but maybe thats just me!

anyway, back to my daydreams for next year 

[cornykev]

I have 4 beds and do rotate every year
Bed 1   Spuds-   leeks go in the early beds afterwards
Bed 2    Roots with onions
Bed 3     Brassicas
Bed 4      Beans and peas
Salads, sweetcorn, squashes etc fit in anywhere you can find space.
Tommie's are grown at home for blight reasons.
 

[Digeroo]

For me things like purple sprouting broccoli cause me confusion because they are still there when you start the next year, and my plants cropped for a very long time and in the end I left them as a deer proof hedge and they have just started cropping again.

I have managed to start putting them between the rows of potatoes so as they potatoes die back the broccoli can take over the space.  But they are supposed to go in after the beans.  I have started intercropping the peas with brassicas as well which seems to make more sense.

But by the time I was ready to move the PSB the ground was as dry as a bone digging was out of the question and anything I sowed or planted would have been cooked. 

I now have manure contamination as well and so sweet corn and brassicas have popped into places I was not planning on putting them.

So I do not find crop rotation a very easy subject at all.

[pigeonseed]

No it's not easy at all - a simple model in a book describes a very static garden, whereas in reality you get crops from the same family being planted and harvested at various points across the year. Which makes successional sowing hard.
 
I've decided to do potatoes - alliums - brassicas. Just because potatoes come up in time to plant out the various alliums, and the alliums are all out by late summer, in time to plant out my overwintering brassicas. It's not the model usually recommended, but with the particular things I want to grow it was the best I could come up with.

Someone said beans don't need to be rotated? Is that true? That would help a lot, because they make a good windbreak I should think. I wouyld like not to have to move them each year.

[1066]

So I do not find crop rotation a very easy subject at all.

So true

I think there's something to be said about Kev's simple Enfield approach   

[plainleaf]

the key to any rotation system is a balance of crops.
when get chance i will post the entire system i use it is not complicated. you just need a better understanding of you planting goals.

[1066]

I'll look forward to that Plainleaf