aminopyralid & gardeners question time

[1066]

Was just listening to Gardener's Question Time on R4 and they had someone on  talking about how to deal  with aminopyralid contaminated manure. For those of you who can't verify if their manure is contaminated or not he advised the following -
make a mixture of 50% manure and 50% compost, put it into 6 saucers (or pots)water it, leave it for 24hours and then plant 6 beans in the pots. At the same time plant a further 6 beans in 100% compost. When they have germinated let them grow until they have 3 or 4 true leaves. At which time if the manure is contaminated the plants will show signs of twisting and distortion. And if it is contaminated then don't just leave the manure in a pile but to incorporate it into the soil and it will break down within 12 months
hope this is of help, I presume you could do the listen again thing as well
1066

[1066]

[cornykev]

I planted 3 onions in my new manure to see what happens to them, but now I'm not sure that the onions are affected, but will try this with the beans tomorrow, but I will deffo not put it in my soil.     ;D ;D ;D

[Eristic]

You lot do not pay any attention to what I have to say but the TV and radio presenters certainly do. Wise up folks. You saw it here first.

[ceres]

I find it very depressing that even GQT has jumped on the Dow garbage advice/propaganda wagon.

[saddad]

I heard it this afternoon, It did seem rather pro DOW to me too...  >:(

[1066]

I heard it this afternoon, It did seem rather pro DOW to me too...  >:(

Same here, but thought it might be of interest to folks

[caroline7758]

The man who gave the advice was from Dow! I was expecting them to have someone from the RHS- I'd have been more likely to believe them. Found out this week someone on my site was affected- I felt bad because I thought he'd just neglected his plot!Scary when it comes soclose to home-I'm sticking with poultry pellets.

[Dadnlad]

Or spent hops ? ;)

[OllieC]

"The real villains are the farmers..." said the presenter & the pr man from Dow. How the hell does that get past the censors?!?! The farmers are just trying to make a living in a tough world... the lieing, negligent  agro-companies on the other hand... purely motivated by greed.

[caroline7758]

Or spent hops ? ;)

Of course!

[ceres]

"The real villains are the farmers..." said the presenter & the pr man from Dow. How the hell does that get past the censors?!?!

Because in this case it's true?  The people responsible for the contamination didn't read/comply with the label instructions - they broke the law.   

[OllieC]

"The real villains are the farmers..." said the presenter & the pr man from Dow. How the hell does that get past the censors?!?!

Because in this case it's true?  The people responsible for the contamination didn't read/comply with the label instructions - they broke the law.   

Surprised to see you siding with Dow! It's not in the least bit true. Farmers have constant pressure on their margins (I know a few), doing their best to get by, get a lot of wink-nudge from the chemical reps (I know a couple of them too), and a few have made a bit of a blunder. This does not make them the "real villians", it makes them silly.

[ceres]

I didn't say anything about siding with Dow.  I said the farmers broke the law.  Are they silly for breakling the law - probably.  Doesn't change the facts.

[asbean]

Maybe the small print "always read the label" should be in VERY LARGE PRINT so the person spraying the field is really made aware of the consequences of their actions.

I've seen a lot of signs advertising manure, and people are having piles delivered to their plots.  The people I have spoken to generally don't know the origins of their pile, and shrug their shoulders when told of the possible dangers, and did they ask the supplier where it came from and is it free from aminopyralid.

Of course, as we are at the end of the chain, we don't know about whether the farmer is irresponsible, the manure suppliers may not know where the feed comes from for their horses/cows.  So we either have an overworked and stressed farmer, not having time or inclination to read the instructions, and spraying the fields, to a large farm where the accountants make the decisions, which are passed down the line to a foreign temporary labourer who possible can't read the instructions and is just doing what they are told.

I feel the onus should be on Dow to ensure that the users of the chemicals they supply have safe working practices - maybe by the issue of licences etc.  It seems over the top, but when the consequences are so wide reaching and affecting so many of the general public, who, let's face it, don't always read the press and don't have the knowledge of where their manure has come from, it could be the only answer.  After all, other chemicals etc are not available to the amateur now, and most drugs can only be obtained by prescription.  It's not too much to ask for.

Sorry to ramble, but had to say something before I hit the intray.  (I didn't hear the prog, will try to catch it later)

[raisedbedted]

If I buy a sportscar, drive it recklessly and cause an accident is that the fault of the manufacturer or me?

The bulk of the blame does lie with the farmers for not ensuring its safe use, its very easy to blame a large organisation like Dow because they are a large ( rich ) 'evil capitalist' petrochemical company but actually even the smaller guys need to take responsibility for their actions.  So it was OK for farmers to use the products and to ignore the label in order to make some money?

The real question for me is should Dow have been allowed to market a chemical that breaks down so slowly that its lifecycle responsibility cannot be enforced by one farmer, to have to rely on the grower of the hay/straw telling purchasers of the aminopyralid to stable owners who should then pass this on to takers of manure is too inefficient.

[hellohelenhere]

Morally, I certainly think Dow are culpable!

This is suddenly relevant for me, as someone on Freecycle gave me some bags of horse manure. I'd forgotten all about it, as it was December when she offered them and I'd never heard back. I collected them on Sunday, but without meeting her, as she left them out front of her house. Then I realised I had no idea if they're aminopyralid-free, or not! Emailed her to ask; but she hasn't replied.

So now I have 3 sacks of manure that I don't know what to do with.

Given the noises that people are making on this thread, do you think the test is accurate? If I do the bean thing and they grow OK, does that mean I can use the manure on my veg plots?

If it is contaminated, and I dig it into the soil, could it affect trees and bushes nearby?

[asbean]

I don't disagree, RBT, but if you buy a car, any car, you still have to prove you're capable of driving it before you can take it on the road.  Driving licence, insurance, tax - the amount you pay for insurance is dependent on your track record and age and the power of the car.   The car manufacturer has done an almighty amount of research and testing to ensure the car is 100 percent safe for a competent user and now there are regulations for the safe disposal at the end of the car's life.

Dow didn't do this (or if they did they failed abysmally).  Yes, the farmers were reckless, and some of them will continue to use any that has been stockpiled, so the problem won't go away for a good many years.

[asbean]

So now I have 3 sacks of manure that I don't know what to do with.

If you can find a spare bed where you don't need to grow anything, spread the three bags over the bed, dig it in, and then turn it regularly over a period of several months so the bacteria in the soil can break down the chemicals.  Then it should be safe.

Given the noises that people are making on this thread, do you think the test is accurate? If I do the bean thing and they grow OK, does that mean I can use the manure on my veg plots?

Hopefully, yes.

If it is contaminated, and I dig it into the soil, could it affect trees and bushes nearby?

Some roses can be affected, and dahlias but I don't know about any other shrubs.

[Eristic]

If you can find a spare bed where you don't need to grow anything, spread the three bags over the bed, dig it in, and then turn it regularly over a period of several months so the bacteria in the soil can break down the chemicals.  Then it should be safe.

Can we stop spreading this Dow propaganda once and for all. There is no evidence that it breaks down biologically and observations indicate otherwise. The highly soluble poison is readily and immediately absorbed by any nearby plant and the rest is washed away into the surrounding watershed. If the plants that absorb the poison are not harmed they simply hold the poison within the plant tissue to be released back to the soil when the plant dies.

The broad bean test works well (thanks to Eristic for devising that one), and the seedlings will grow distorted if the poison is present.

If you spread Dow's toxic chemicals on your ground and dig it in, your ground may well be safe within a few weeks but your neighbour might not be able to grow potatoes for several years.

[hellohelenhere]

Eek! Well, I'll try the bean test and hope the manure is OK. If it isn't, I'll just chuck it away. In my 'landfill' black bin.  :S