Simple plants genetics books or sites

[Hector]

My daughter and I have been having fun with growing tomatoes and chillis together. We fancy having a play with crosses/selected breeding. Just for fun and something we can both do undercover.

Apart from an old school biology book, we don't really have a clue. What's a simple book?
This sounds good

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Breed-Your-Own-Vegetable-Varieties/dp/1890132721?ie=UTF8&psc=1&redirect=true&ref_=oh_aui_detailpage_o09_s00

[Hector]

[galina]

My daughter and I have been having fun with growing tomatoes and chillis together. We fancy having a play with crosses/selected breeding. Just for fun and something we can both do undercover.

Apart from an old school biology book, we don't really have a clue. What's a simple book?
This sounds good

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Breed-Your-Own-Vegetable-Varieties/dp/1890132721?ie=UTF8&psc=1&redirect=true&ref_=oh_aui_detailpage_o09_s00

Definitely - she got me into the pea breeding lark when the book first came out - and the bug is still ongoing and probably getting worse, more than a decade later. 

[galina]

And a forum you might like for growing, breeding and weird and wonderful experimenting in good company:
http://www.growingfoodsavingseeds.co.uk/

[Hector]

Thank you :)
Ps tried to join that forum before/again but says admin has disabled registration :)

[Silverleaf]

Honestly, I love Carol's book to bits but I don't think it's a good one for explaining genetics. I'd get the book anyway because it's full of fantastic information, but look elsewhere for genetics stuff.

I'm not the world's best teacher but I'm always happy to try to explain things and answer any questions, and I'm happy to offer Skype chats. Peas are really my focus (and they are a fantastic way to start) but the concepts are exactly the same whatever species you're looking at.

Really though, you don't need any of that to breed new varieties. I think it's fascinating and spend a lot of time drawing out little diagrams of potential crosses so I can work out what's likely to happen, just for fun, but people have been breeding plants for centuries without ever having heard of DNA. If you want to learn, great! If not, don't feel like you have to in order to breed successfully.

We should totally have a little genetics social group where we can all ask questions and teach each other! I mean I know a lot of theory but I don't have that much practical experience, and I know people like Jayb and Galina have been crossing and selecting for years.

[Silverleaf]

The offer of teaching is open to anyone who wants to learn, by the way. I'm not an expert and definitely don't know all the answers, but if I can help, I will.

[Jayb]

I haven't come across a book specifically on tomato crossing/genes and grow outs. It seems to be more what you can glean around the net and from a variety of books. I've got to know some of the better known genes in tomatoes and they can be huge fun to work with, it really is an absorbing hobby!

What are you interested in creating?

[Hector]

We thought we would cross the small tomatoes with a tasty cherry this year.
We love the taste of Sungold and like the wee tomatoes ((Robin) we grew last year ( in terms of size, not taste....so after growing a wee one that's well tasty....so not aspiring unduly... ;)

We have a few packets of mini toms and I've sown them...so we're going to have a play.
daughter can't go outside/ get touched by rain, so a way of us gardening inside together.

[Silverleaf]

We thought we would cross the small tomatoes with a tasty cherry this year.
We love the taste of Sungold and like the wee tomatoes ((Robin) we grew last year ( in terms of size, not taste....so after growing a wee one that's well tasty....so not aspiring unduly... ;)

We have a few packets of mini toms and I've sown them...so we're going to have a play.
daughter can't go outside/ get touched by rain, so a way of us gardening inside together.

Then I think the breeding process should be pretty easy!

Here's what I'd do:
1) Make a few crosses this year. I don't have much growing space so I'd only do one or two, but of course you probably have room for a few more than me! Keep your different crosses separate from each other at every stage unless you really don't care about knowing the exact parentage of your new varieties - treat each one as a completely separate project.
2) The first generation of plants after the cross (what we call the F1) will all be genetically identical hybrids so there's no need to grow many. Since tomatoes make so many seeds, you could get away with just a single F1 plant for each cross and that will give you loads of seeds. (Personally I'd be tempted to grow more than one in case some terrible disaster happens, but I'm cautious). With tomatoes being self-pollinators you don't need to do anything but grow them and save seeds as usual.
3) Grow as many second-generation (F2) plants as you can. This is where you'll see differences between plants, so the more you grow the better your chances of getting something you like. You could just grow a couple, but I'd think 5 or more would be better. Save seeds from your favourite.
4) Grow your F3 generation just like last time. Save seeds from your favourite again.
5) Keep saving from your favourite plant each generation. After 7 generations like this you'll have a pretty stable new variety and you can grow it just like you would a commercial one. The odd one here and there will be an off-type, but that's no problem, just don't use it for seed saving!

The most fun part is that you'll get to taste loads of different tomatoes and assess them, and make decisions according to your own personal taste rather than growing someone else's perfect tomato...

[Hector]

Thank you :)

[galina]

I like your instructions Silverleaf.  So true.  For some reason I always thought of the F2 generation as the big decider, the generation where the most diversity happens.  And of course it is, but I was delighted in 'recessives' coming to the fore in the F3 in my breeding.  They actually meant more than the diversity I got in the F2.

Hector and daughter, there are just so many delightful surprises when you cross the threshold of plant breeding, you'll be hooked in no time.  Hope you will have as much fun as I do.   

[Silverleaf]

And here's a few little tips:

* Don't be discouraged by what you get in the F1. You don't really get a feel for what your cross has produced until you see the variation in the F2. I'd expect all your F1s to be tall plants, for example, and for some short ones to show up in the F2.

* It's better to grow 10 plants from one line than it is to grow two plants each from five lines. Selection is a more powerful tool the more choice you have, so resist the temptation to make far more crosses than you can possibly worth with, unless you want to make loads of crosses and then store most of the resulting seeds to work with in the future.

* Label your seeds. I can't emphasise this enough - put as much info as you can on your labels. Name, generation, notes about the plant you collected it from, year, fruit colour/shape/size, taste, EVERYTHING. (Eg. Robin x Sungold F3, small sweet round red fruits, medium acid, complex taste, mini plant, 2019.) You'll be glad you did when you find the packets again later...

* Keep seeds from different stages. Maybe you'll get to the F4 and grow out 5 plants and none of them are right. Don't be afraid to go back to the previous generation of seeds and try again, and don't be afraid to try out the siblings of your chosen favourite if it isn't working out. It's probably worth saving a few seeds from every plant you grow just so you have these kind of options to fall back on if you want to.

Have fun with it!

[Silverleaf]

I like your instructions Silverleaf.  So true.  For some reason I always thought of the F2 generation as the big decider, the generation where the most diversity happens.  And of course it is, but I was delighted in 'recessives' coming to the fore in the F3 in my breeding.  They actually meant more than the diversity I got in the F2.

Hector and daughter, there are just so many delightful surprises when you cross the threshold of plant breeding, you'll be hooked in no time.  Hope you will have as much fun as I do.   

Oh yes, of course nothing is ever certain! There are so many variables that even with perfect knowledge of the genes you're working with you can only make a(n educated) prediction as to what you'll get. You're trying to assess random events, after all.

I love that prediction process (remember my tree diagrams?) but it's even more fun and exciting to see what actually happens!

[Jayb]

We thought we would cross the small tomatoes with a tasty cherry this year.
We love the taste of Sungold and like the wee tomatoes ((Robin) we grew last year ( in terms of size, not taste....so after growing a wee one that's well tasty....so not aspiring unduly... ;)

We have a few packets of mini toms and I've sown them...so we're going to have a play.
daughter can't go outside/ get touched by rain, so a way of us gardening inside together.

Many of the small growing tomatoes are a bit harder to work with as their flowers are that little bit smaller, sometimes it is better to use them as a the pollen donor rather than the female parent, though most of the crosses I've done they have been the female parent.

Sungold is stunning isn't it, one consideration, it seems to be a complex cross and most, if not all attempts to de- hybridize it haven't resulted in great plants plus there have been stability issues with the odd red fruited plant popping up after most other varieties would have been stable.

If you'd like to skip forward a couple of years while your crosses progress, I've several crosses you might be interested in, none with Red Robin but I've got a few Sungold F7 (really lovely tasting and vigorous cherry selection, though still not stable) crosses. I'll have to check properly but I think a Sweet and Neat x Sungold F7, I think F2 possible F3. Also Ditmarcher x Sungold F7, probably both F1&2. Ditmarcher makes a lovely determinate basket size plant with lots of pretty pink fruit. I may have another couple of crosses using sungold F7 with little ones though I more crosses with small growing varieties and most would be with other less complex crosses. Let me know if you are interested and I'll make a list.

Another consideration is if you are using an F1 as one or more parent, the first generation offspring 'F1' will not be identical and you can pretty much treat them as an f2 from the point the plants will all be varied. Using F1 as parents also has the added complication of being harder to select for traits and generally will take longer to stabilize chosen lines from these crosses. 

[Hector]

JayB, that's very helpful.

In fact, the smaller flowers may be an issue as she can't use both hands...so may be easier if we focus on bigger fruit/ flowers of cherry toms.

Her favourite toms are Sungold and striped tiger one M&S did...we kept the seeds.

She also liked the blue we grew ?..not for taste but visually. We were going to order Dancing with Surfs and considered crossing with that with M&S Tiger. We liked that one but skin was a bit thick for my liking...

We'd love to try one of your F7 and perhaps we should stick to bigger?

Ps which USA suppliers have you used for DWSmurfs. That name is an instant smile.


Ps suppliers who have both DWS and mono taro...which Ifancy...are Trade Winds

[Jayb]

I'm sure I've several crosses which should give some interesting traits and be fun to select for your favourites. I love love love striped tomatoes and know I have crosses, not sure what I have spares of but will have a look later on and you can pick which you fancy.

Green Tiger do have a firm flesh and the skin does have a tendency to be tough which not everyone enjoys, but these traits give good hang on vine and shelf time, so there is not so much of a rush to eat them. Two similar type I've been playing around with are Tigro and Tigris, both are F1's so the crosses will be a bit more complicated.

I had my Dancing with Smurfs from the breeder Tom Wagner he's got a forum http://tatermater.proboards.com/ which is just amazing for the amount of information it contains.

And Tom also a seed sale site http://tatermaterseeds.com/shop/    though it seems he may not be selling seeds this season.

I've been growing DWS since 2011, I think  the seeds I started with were F3, so more than stable now. I've shared them around several groups/forums and you do see their name popping up, which is great because they are a lovely tomato. I've continually selected for the best tasting and producing and they seem to do well here. You are welcome to seeds from last year (and anyone else who fancies them - just let me know) Just realised I've forgotten to sow mine, so they are  going in this evening!

Tradewinds have always been good when I've bought seeds from them. Not sure what mono taro is?

[Silverleaf]

I grew Helsing Junction Blues last year and really liked it - first blue tomato I've ever tried! It's another of Tom Wagner's.

I also think Dances with Smurfs sounds awesome and I'd love to try it next year!

[Hector]

It's a family joke that we are always blue-tinged due to Scottish ability to tan ( ahem).
If we bred a deep blue I'd call it Jigging with Glaswegians.

Exciting :)

[Silverleaf]

It's a family joke that we are always blue-tinged due to Scottish ability to tan ( ahem).
If we bred a deep blue I'd call it Jigging with Glaswegians.

Exciting :)

That's funny! ;)

I have the kind of skin that burns at the first hint of sun, feels sore for a week and then develops into a light tan. I'd much rather be my usual winter pale all year round, but even slathered in high-factor sunscreen the rays get me. Stupid UV!

Naming your lovely new varieties is going to be so much fun! I chose names for 12 potato varieties early this year and enjoyed myself throughly researching names where the meaning reflects either the colour or their parentage. But I'm weird like that...

[Robert_Brenchley]

First generation seedlings will be far from identical as you get random ressortment of genes talking place during cell division. They'll probably vary a good deal. Commercial F1's produce identical offspring because the parent varieties are very inbred, and created specially for this process.