Mystery French beans

[Silverleaf]

I grew Barlotto Lingua di Fuoco beans about 6 years ago, and I sowed the 10 or so beans I had left from that a couple of weeks ago.

I also sowed about 10 similar-looking beans that I'm pretty sure I collected myself, but I don't remember the circumstances. (I've only every grown about 10-12 varieties of french bean before, and only one of them was speckled.) They are about the same size (a little bigger) and shape as the Lingua beans with the same pretty speckling, but much darker in colour. The "background" is a tan colour rather than beige and I think the spots are darker too, although irritatingly I don't have any of the originals left now to compare.

I figured the differences might be down to environmental conditions for the parent plants, but I'm seeing a lot of difference in the resulting seedlings as well. The dark beans are about 3 days ahead of the original ones despite being sowed at exactly the same time, and the stems are about twice as thick. They look very chunky little plants indeed!

I can only think they are the result of a cross at some point, which showed up in my original order. Seed coat in French beans is part of the mother plant so the darker colour might only have been revealed when one of the plants I grew set seeds itself.

Anyway, I have no idea what to expect from the mystery dark seeds, so it should be fun finding out what happens!

[Silverleaf]

[galina]

Silverleaf,

some environmental changes in bean seeds and changes in storage observed here:  Standard is that beige turns to brown, light brown turns to darker brown and dark brown often goes black.  That seems to be the same for everybody.  Dark pink in seeds goes maroon and dull brownish maroon.  All patterns are more clearly visible on freshly shelled seeds, but patterns do not change in storage.  Beans with coloured flecks show great variation in the size and extent of the flecks from year to year.  Ditto the so-called 'soldier beans'  or 'monk beans'.  Hilum figures (figures around the scar of the bean seed) can be much more pronounced some years than others.

There is the phenomenon of 'seed coat inversion' in borlotti type beans.  A small number of beans of the type with a background colour and a second colour for spots and stripes, swap background and spot colour (but stripes stay the original colour and are harder to see because they are now the same colour as the background on inversed beans).  Often people think these are crosses, but they are just a different way the seed coat colour has developed for an unknown reason. 

I have got blueish-grey seeds in an original packet from the US, that turned out to be mid-brown in my soil.  I guess different minerals caused that change, but I was surprised at that.  Growing the rest of the seed packet resulted in the same colour change, although interestingly this variety has kept its high gloss on the seeds in storage.  Most beans get duller in storage.

True white (rather than beige white) beans will always stay white in storage. 

Bean seed size is also quite different in different locations.  Hotter, drier climate produces smaller seeds, but often more intensely coloured seed coats.  Beans grown in a rainy season (or well watered), grow larger seeds that stay larger even when dried.

I would expect that a Borlotti from a new seed packet could look quite different compared to a home grow-out, just because of environmental differences.  The second picture on this blog page shows freshly shelled borlotti seeds:

http://www.italianfoodforever.com/2008/08/fresh-stewed-borlotti-beans/

Two of the seeds are clearly 'inversed' - the colour of the spots and the background has 'swapped'.  Stick those in the soil and the result would be the normal colouring again for the majority of the harvest.

I would expect the other beans to get a light- to mid-brown base colour in storage and the red spots and stripes to turn dark maroon.  How much darker depends on length of storage and also growing conditions (minerals in soil etc).  And possibly also on how fast the seeds were dried. 

Silverleaf, when you compare freshly shelled beans of both batches later this year, it will become much clearer whether they are the same or another variety.  And if a cross was involved (rather than an inversion) then that will also become obvious at seed shelling time.  I would just label everything separately to allow  you to tell which was which at harvest time - because they could (just possibly) all turn out to look identical - on the other hand you could have Borlottis and the beginnings of a whole new bean dynasty. 

Got to love a bean mystery!   

[Silverleaf]

That makes sense, thank you. :)

I'd expect that the "real" Linguas would darken on storage too though, and they haven't. They are one year older than the darker beans, and still considerably lighter. I didn't see any colour inversion.

I'll try to get a few pics of the darker beans growing. They're going great guns!

[Silverleaf]

See what I mean about the fat stems? They are a good 6mm thick.

[galina]

They are beefy.  Lovely 

ps trying to make out the colours from the remnants of the seed coat that's still attached.  Doesn't look that dark?

[Silverleaf]

Also, here's what the dark bean seeds look like.

[galina]

We literally crossed  messages just now - yes that does look dark and nothing like a Borlotti. 

[Silverleaf]

You see, that's what's weird. It's nothing like anything else I've grown either. Apart from the original Lingua do Fuoco, all the beans were white, black or tan with no markings at all.

I'm 98% sure I saved those seeds from a plant I grew, and none of my plants were chunky like that. The genuine Linguas are certainly not - they are looking like they'll be sturdy but not on that scale.

I had 13 dark seeds, which is more than I'd get from a single accidental cross. That's probably 2 pods worth at least. I wish I could remember why I saved them, but it's possible there was something weird about one of the plants and I kept a few seeds because of that, but I really don't know.

[Silverleaf]

We literally crossed  messages just now - yes that does look dark and nothing like a Borlotti. 

I really wish I could show a comparison photo, but they look very similar to the genuine Linguas I sowed, except that they are so dark. Tan instead of beige.

[Silverleaf]

And just out of interest, here's what I think I grew the year I think I saved those dark seeds.

Lingua di Fuoco
Cherokee Trail of Tears
Blue Coco (no seed left from this)
Poletscka
Cosse Violette
Goldfield Corono d'Oro (will have to track this one down again too)
Cupidon
Ferrari (possibly)
Kew Blue

I also saved some seeds from that year which I didn't label, because apparently I'm an idiot that likes to make things difficult for her future self! ;) They are a tan colour and look very much like the Cosse Violette beans I had left in a packet from Real Seeds, but of course I have no idea if that's what they are. Could be. Could be something else entirely. I'm growing them out so I can compare, but the seedlings don't look that alike to me so who knows.

And the moral of the story is, LABEL YOUR SEEDS, especially if you saved them for a particular reason which you'll have forgotten in 5 years time when you find the seeds again!

Also, SAVE LOTS OF SEEDS FROM EVERYTHING, or you'll lose stuff you want to grow again. I had 6 Kew Blue seeds left, and I now have exactly one seedling.

[galina]

And just out of interest, here's what I think I grew the year I think I saved those dark seeds.

Lingua di Fuoco
Cherokee Trail of Tears
Blue Coco (no seed left from this)
Poletscka
Cosse Violette
Goldfield Corono d'Oro (will have to track this one down again too)
Cupidon
Ferrari (possibly)
Kew Blue

I also saved some seeds from that year which I didn't label, because apparently I'm an idiot that likes to make things difficult for her future self! ;) They are a tan colour and look very much like the Cosse Violette beans I had left in a packet from Real Seeds, but of course I have no idea if that's what they are. Could be. Could be something else entirely. I'm growing them out so I can compare, but the seedlings don't look that alike to me so who knows.

And the moral of the story is, LABEL YOUR SEEDS, especially if you saved them for a particular reason which you'll have forgotten in 5 years time when you find the seeds again!

Also, SAVE LOTS OF SEEDS FROM EVERYTHING, or you'll lose stuff you want to grow again. I had 6 Kew Blue seeds left, and I now have exactly one seedling.

Well indeed, couldn't agree more with all of your points.  No the above does not look like any of the varieties you grew and lack of labelling (or making notes in a garden diary) does not help.  But, let's assume this bean is a cross and you have been saving F1 seeds.  This is the most likely scenario because you did not notice at seed sowing time when you sowed the plant that eventually bore the different coloured seeds.  Seed coat is maternal tissue - any cross happens without changes to the seed coat colour in the year that it happens. 

So this is most possibly an F2 seed.  And that would result in a myriad of different plants, flower colours, pod shapes and ultimately seed differences.  Possibly NONE will look like the F2 seed on the photo.  However you would likely see variation at the seedling stage already?

Then there is the possibility of a forgotten seed swap?  Perhaps.  That is most likely if they all stay uniform and produce uniform seeds.  A rarer possibility is a mutation.  Do you know the chances of a mutation in beans?

Either way, there will be answers when you see the results of this year's generation.  And if the plants/seeds are all different as in the case with an F2 generation, then the lack of labelling is of no consequence, because you will need new and different names for them anyway.  We don't know the parents of hardly any of our beans in the garden.

I was very lucky with my 'Infra' bean project to know the parents involved.  I received seeds from Indiana Banana beans.  Then one plant had different flowers and pods.  I was delighted with the opportunity of this cross and asked my donor what else had been grown.  Berner LandFRAuen was next  to INdiana Banana.  Well the two beans could not be more different from each other and looking at all the characteristics, the pollen was almost certainly from Berner Landfrauen.

Exciting!  May beasties and mishaps stay away from those precious seedlings!   

[Silverleaf]

We can rule out a forgotten seed swap, as I've only ever received one variety that way (Poletschka, which it definitely isn't). Everything else came from Real Seeds, Beans and Herbs, or some other seed place. The Linguas were from Beans and Herbs.

I figure seeds from someone else would be labelled anyway...

No real variation in the seedlings as yet. Some are more advanced than others because they germinated faster, but that seems normal. The differences are being exaggerated by the fact that they're growing like the clappers once they get their heads up - I think the biggest one is 2" taller than it was 24 hours ago. They need to go outside, but I've been waiting for a couple of sunny days in a row. Tomorrow's looking good.

I normally grow beans up 8' canes, but I think these will have to go in a big pot so they can grow over my trellis arch as I wouldn't be surprised if they grow REALLY tall, the way they're going.

Think I might have to start keeping a garden diary.

[Silverleaf]

Right, I've started a diary. That'll help in later years, I guess!

The dark beans are now in a pot outside, but not in their permanent home yet because I need to clear the long grass by the trellis and it's too wet to be cutting grass right now. One of the Trail of Tears beans I planted out at the same time has had its first pair of leaves completely munched by one of the slimy little gits, grrr, but the growing tip is okay so it'll recover I think. Can't help but see them as little and weedy and delicate next to the dark bean which is looking particularly chunky next to the "normals".

Also I need a nickname for the dark beans. Any ideas?

[Silverleaf]

And in other news I really want to start a bean landrace, a mixture of as many different varieties as I can all mixed up together. I can see a lot of seed swapping in my future! :)

[goodlife]

About the seed coat colours..

I've grown some 'Swedish brown' beans now few years in a row...each time using the seeds from the original packet with the result that the seeds loose their brown coat when I grow them in my plot/growing condions. They just wont keep the lovely deep brown colour and my own saved seeds are almost all turned into 'dalmations' or 'half-and-half' brown-white coated 'mongrels'.
YES...I know!...it doesn't effect the taste or the plant growth...but I just LIKE the ALL BROWN look..
I wish I could tell what it is that result for the 'problem'.

Silverleaf.....I can't fail to notice that you have 'swallowed' the hook and the floater and now got yourself truly interested meddling with seedsaving...plant breeding etc.. ...that is the way and long may it last...have fun, there is plenty of wonders in plant world to investigate 

[Silverleaf]

Yeah, the bug has definitely bitten me!

I've always been interested in genetics anyway (studied it at university) so it's nice to be doing something practical with my knowledge.

Besides, plants are awesome, beans and peas especially...!

[galina]

Yeah, the bug has definitely bitten me!

I've always been interested in genetics anyway (studied it at university) so it's nice to be doing something practical with my knowledge.

Besides, plants are awesome, beans and peas especially...!

Couldn't agree more!  Maybe we could ask Dan for a Seedsaving/Plantbreeding spot on the forum?

Landrace breeding is the next thing to go.  But with beans we may not have to.  There are beans out there that that somehow never get genetically stable, each generation is different.  Don't know why, but i am growing a few again this year.  They tend to be very vigorous, guess the hybrid vigor never goes away if they can't stabilise into a variety.  Just wanted to put that one out there, because I have never heard about it before I got such beans in a swap.  And I have never heard anybody else talk about it either. 

Dark Lottie?  Just a suggestion.  :)

[Silverleaf]

Dark Lottie is perfect! Thank you!

A seed saving/breeding section is also a great idea, I bet quite a few of us dabble a bit and we could help each other out. Wouldn't it be cool to swap F2s or grow things out for each other or whatever? And as you know I'm certainly happy to help out with the technical genetics stuff if people have questions.

I found another little bag of beans today, helpfully labelled "Mystery bean 2008".There's four of them, and they look kind of like a tiny version of Dark Lottie, with a slightly darker background and lighter speckling, about 10mm long (Dark Lottie's about 17mm). I wish I'd written myself a note about where I found this one, but I do remember a plant smaller than the rest (still obviously a climber rather than a bush though) with purple striations on the pod, and only a couple of pods on it. A bad thing to save seed from I guess, but I'm nothing if not curious!

It's only 4 beans. I can squeeze them in somewhere, right? ;)

[goodlife]

Ah...what's 4 teeny weeny little beans...they won't take much room at all....
Go for it!

And that reminds me...I must re-sow one of my 'mystery' beans again to see what they are...since I forgot to do the labelling properly.
Perhaps those beans will be 'third time lucky' and the labels will stay in place without going for their walk-a-bouts...

[Silverleaf]

Ah yes, the old "mystery beans"... Got to love mystery beans!

I sowed 20 of my mystery tan beans as well as the Dark Lottie. They are growing well with pretty purple stems so I suspect purple pods too. They might well be Cosse Violette, but I don't really know.

One thing is very clear though - seeds I saved myself have germinated faster and grown better than seeds I bought. It can't just be the age of the seeds either, because one year can't make that much difference with beans... The "real" Lingua di Fuocos for example haven't don't well at all, with 3/8 germinating and not looking very good now, compared with Dark Lottie with 11/12 germinated and looking very strong.