pollinating squash with courgette flowers

[RenishawPhil]

Our squash have just started producing female flowers. I have hand pollinated these with male courgette flowers. Last year I pollinated pumpkin plants with courgette male flowers.

I assume this should work ok with squash ? Has anyone done this? I can't rely on the verse n insects due to crap weather and also due to the facet no male flowers are out yet!!

[RenishawPhil]

[RenishawPhil]

Oh and once I've fertlized them how long does it take the fertilization to take effect before rain can wash it off?

[ed dibbles]

Squash and courgettes are from four different species - pepo, maxima, mixta and moschata. Moschata are the butternut types.

Courgettes are from pepo as are many squash so if you are pollinating between those you will have no problems.

Maxima and mixta will also pollinate with pepo to some extent so you will have a good chance of fruit set with these too.

Moschata will only pollinate with itself, one of the reasons butternuts are harder to grow than other squash.

I have cross pollinated courgettes with squash, and the other way round, before. Best to do it in the morning probably. A couple of hours of dry weather should be enough for fertilization to take place, depending on the temperature.

[RenishawPhil]

Thanks did one yesterday about 2pm and one about 7pm. Started raining about 2am

I am not what squash I've pollinated as I've grown lots if different types.

Am I right in thinking butternuts are bush rather then vine plants? In which case I don't think they are butternuts!

[ed dibbles]

Butternuts are trailers but tend to be less vigorous than other types. In other words they are smaller.

I've seldom had much success with butternuts (not only the fertilization problem but they tend to need more heat too) but last year had so many squash (not butternuts) they were being eaten from october to june. :)

As you know when they first begin flowering it's very often a case of trying to match male flowers with female ones.

[ed dibbles]

forgot to say butternut squash flowers tend to be smaller than the other types. ;)

[RenishawPhil]

I'll post a pic up later and see if anyone can tell what it is!!

[goodlife]

Code Select Expand

I'll post a pic up later and see if anyone can tell what it is!!
If you can add a list of varieties you are growing, it is possibility to do some sort of identification between species and exclude those from your list that don't match..but to ident varieties in same species from their growth is virtually impossible, not until the fruit is precent.

[RenishawPhil]

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I'll post a pic up later and see if anyone can tell what it is!!
If you can add a list of varieties you are growing, it is possibility to do some sort of identification between species and exclude those from your list that don't match..but to ident varieties in same species from their growth is virtually impossible, not until the fruit is precent.

I'll send the pic of the one which has the fruit on.it

[galina]

Just to add, interspecies cross pollination is not something to rely on.  It is really quite rare.  However, there is a strange 'seedless' trait that many squashes and cucumbers have.  Something goes wrong with pollination (often when the pollen is too cold with late developing squashes) but the plant 'thinks' it has been pollinated and produces a fruit - a seedless fruit.  These fruits strangely develop and even store ok.  I noticed this when I started seed saving.  All too often I have handpollinated squash saved for seed that turned out to be seedless after months on the windowsill  :(.  These seedless squashes have definitely been pollinated by me and grew fruit, but evidently something was wrong with the pollen at the time.  This has happened with c pepo, c maxima and very frequently with the most warmth loving c moschata.  Less of a problem in the warmer environment of the greenhouse.

This is not a rant about the difficulties of saving squash seeds  :)  - just wanted to say that it is easy to 'trick' cucurbita into 'thinking' they have been pollinated when they actually haven't received viable pollen at all.  Therefore any attempt at pollination, even with the wrong species pollen, is better than nothing.

Courgette 'parthenon' for example is a specially selected variety for this seedless trait (parthenocarpic trait - the clue is in the name  ;) ), seedless greenhouse cucumbers is another example (the advice is to pick off all male flowers).

Squash and courgettes are from four different species - pepo, maxima, mixta and moschata. Moschata are the butternut types.

Courgettes are from pepo as are many squash so if you are pollinating between those you will have no problems.

Maxima and mixta will also pollinate with pepo to some extent so you will have a good chance of fruit set with these too.

Moschata will only pollinate with itself, one of the reasons butternuts are harder to grow than other squash.

I have cross pollinated courgettes with squash, and the other way round, before. Best to do it in the morning probably. A couple of hours of dry weather should be enough for fertilization to take place, depending on the temperature.

[galina]

Oh and once I've fertlized them how long does it take the fertilization to take effect before rain can wash it off?

Pollination is worse in wet weather.  For proper pollination the pollen must not be wet, but not bone dry either.  However hand pollination may still work (see my other post).

One way of getting around the damp problem is to prevent both female and male flower from opening and then closing the female flower again after hand pollination, to prevent rain access.  Unfortunately on rainy days, it is also often too cold for pollen to be viable.

When you send a photo to help identify what squash you are using to pollinate, please also look at the leaves.  c pepo leaves are stiffer and often quite 'scratchy' on the underside, c maxima leaves are softer, larger and hairy - more like floppy elephant ears. 

If you just tell us the variety names, that is be enough to tell you the species.  One of my pet hate is that seed companies often don't give the species name or (even worse) make mistakes.  But 'googling' a variety name will usually produce the information.

This Wiki page gives a lot of information and has links to the most commonly grown types c pepo, c maxima and c moschata.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cucurbita

[RenishawPhil]

Oops forgot to take picture of the leaf. How long will the female remain viable for pollination, once its tried out out i may try pollinating it with another courgette flower just in case it didnt work last night

[ed dibbles]

I have noticed the same thing, galina, empty squash when cut open. The Pink Banana I grew seemed particularly prone.

As you say it didn't affect storage or usage one jot. In fact it made them easier to prepare. But they were not being saved for seed so that wasn't a problem.

However very frustrating for those who do attempt fertilization for seed saving of course.

[galina]

Why not - usually it is only one day, but this flower shows no signs of wilting yet, so you have nothing to lose and it might even work.   :) 

[RenishawPhil]

thanks everyone will wait and see now!

So if it got pollinated last night the pollen will hit the stigma and move down the ovule within a few hours?,

Sorry for the questions just planted loads this year and these are my first ones.   i am thinking these may well be butternet after having a good luck so am thinking the pollination might not even work, hopefully the plant will be fooled and produce a normal plant

How many female flowers/fruits do people find squash normally produce?, i know different types vary but are we looking at say 3/5 etc?

[galina]

thanks everyone will wait and see now!

So if it got pollinated last night the pollen will hit the stigma and move down the ovule within a few hours?,

Sorry for the questions just planted loads this year and these are my first ones.   i am thinking these may well be butternet after having a good luck so am thinking the pollination might not even work, hopefully the plant will be fooled and produce a normal plant

How many female flowers/fruits do people find squash normally produce?, i know different types vary but are we looking at say 3/5 etc?

you can expect a lot more than 3 or 5, by no means all or nearly all female flowers will be pollinated in any case.  Even if this one does nothing or (happens a lot) the miniature fruit rots off in a week, this is nothing to worry about.  There is just so much growing time left.  Most people here won't even have their first flowers yet ..... ;D

The photo does not look like a butternut to me, but it is not easy to tell at this angle.  The miniature embryo fruit will normally resemble the mature fruit shape.  Here is a photo of a female and male butternut flower for your reference

http://horticulturetalk.wordpress.com/2010/07/21/male-or-female-identifying-luffa-and-cucurbit-flowers/

This is an even better photo
http://www.sciencephoto.com/media/43093/enlarge

[RenishawPhil]

Actually looks a bit diff.
This one is quite hairy to
Only time will tell

[ed dibbles]

Doesn't look like a butternut type to me, more like a pepo type - stiff upright flower, bristly stem etc.

But it also looks from the health of the growth you are going to do just fine with your squash this year. :)

[RenishawPhil]

Thanks growing in a manure heap:).

It could actually be one our smaller pumpkins we are growing or an acorn!!

Its like a box of surprises