Developing your own veg variety.

[goodlife]

I was just being nosy and wondering  what sort of veg you lot might try to develop/breed to be your own unique varieties...and why.
Just for fun of it and cause I've never done it before, I finally this summer got around tinkering with tomatoes. I admit I don't know about plant genetics..or what might be dominant trait and what not.
I simply took few toms that I found doing well..being nice tasting or looking. I'm hoping to get productive 'gene' from the modern variety..giving it a touch of heritage look and taste.. ::) ..One hopes. I feel like the 'Swedish chef' from muppet show.. ;D "Doo-de-doo-de-doo" ;D
This summer one of my Swedish dot beans developed into climbing sport rather than bush that is true to type..any thoughts from you lot..will the resulting beans carry on climbing or not? I've kept the seeds separate that came out of that one plant.

[goodlife]

[galina]

Love this thread.  I wanted to have a large yellow mangetout pea.  Crossed a large, green one with Golden Sweet and got a nice sweet, wide podded new variety.  Not quite as long as I want, but further work with other large podded pea varieties might get there. 

There is a lot of genetic information on www.  This is quite basic
http://kdcomm.net/~tomato/gene/genes.html
others are a bit more advanced.
http://kdcomm.net/~tomato/Tomato/mutant.html

For peas, the Mendel papers are very interesting
http://www.mendelweb.org/Mendel.html

Loads about bean genetics
http://beangenes.cws.ndsu.nodak.edu/

A very inspiring book of interest for all seed savers, not just breeders, is
Carol Deppe's  'Breed Your Own Vegetable Varieties - The Gardener's & Farmer's Guide to Plant Breeding & Seed Saving'

[galina]

This summer one of my Swedish dot beans developed into climbing sport rather than bush that is true to type..any thoughts from you lot..will the resulting beans carry on climbing or not? I've kept the seeds separate that came out of that one plant.

This is difficult to judge for us, but you can easily find out yourself.  Old heirloom varieties of bush beans often have short 'runners' , perhaps a couple of feet long.  This happens and does not mean that anything has crossed.  

But if there has been a cross, then tall is dominant to short, so a cross would be showing up as tall growing in the first grow out after a cross, because the short gene is recessive.

When we sow a crossed bean, it is not obvious that this seed has a crossed germ inside, because the seed coat looks exactly like the mother variety.  But this seed grows into a different plant from the parent variety and its seeds look different from the parent variety too.  In the next generation, when you grow from the F1 seeds, there will be a whole array of different plants with different characteristics.  The F2 generation (second filial generation after the original cross) is great fun, because you get a first glimpse at the possibilities that the cross can offer - from downright duds (but edible) to promising new varieties.  And you can select the plants you want and grow them on for several more generations towards a new, stable variety.

My own pea cross was green podded in the F1 generation.  This was a good sign!  Green is dominant to yellow in peas.  If my F1 had been yellow, it would have meant that the cross had not worked out.  The next generation, the F2 generation,  was interesting.  I had yellow and green pods, some mangetout and others shelling peas (although both parents were mangetout, there must have been hard, parchment podded peas in the ancestry).  It was a case of selecting out what I wanted and growing this variety on.

If you have a genuine mutation to tall (and this is quite possible, because dwarf beans were a mutation from tall ones to start with), then the F1 will be identical in all traits, apart from the mutation trait.  And when you grow it on, the F2 generation will not display the wide variability that you get after a cross.  It will be perfectly uniform and stable.  An example of a genuine mutation that happened about a decade ago, is 'Mr Yeoman's White Seeded Cherokee Trail of Tears bean'.  John Yeoman grew the ordinary black seeded type and ended up with a white seeded pod.  He took these seeds and grew them on and they stayed white, whilst all other plant characteristics were just like ordinary Ch ToTs.  Not quite true, because the pods are also very slightly paler when they are fully mature - the ordinary ToTs turn purple a little faster than the white seeded mutation.  This seems to go hand in hand with the white seeded trait.  But anybody would recognise the white seeded mutation as a ToT.  John passed seeds to several other gardeners in his Village Guild (sadly now gone) and his Gardening Guild and all have been pure white seeded ever since the original mutation.

Sorry for long ramble.  A mutation is stable in the following generations and the only difference is the one trait that has mutated.  A cross will show up in the F1 generation as a different plant and in the F2 it will display a wide variety of differences.

You will know whether you have a cross or a mutation, when you grow your seeds again.  You didn't say whether the seeds from the tall plant were identical to the seeds that are normal for Swedish dot beans?  If they are then you have a possible mutation.

Hope this makes sense.  I am a complete lay person when it comes to genetics, but I can ramble on for hours about the things that have happened in my garden  ;D

 

[ceres]

I feel like the 'Swedish chef' from muppet show.. ;D "Doo-de-doo-de-doo" ;D

Do you make your salads this way?

[goodlife]

When I noticed that one bean plant turning into climber..I did contact the supplier..nordic seed bank..and they suspected the mutation. The original seeds were all identical..the flowers, seeds and the pods on the climber identical to the bush ones. There is absolutely no telling any difference with the new seeds from the bush sort and the plant did climb properly..I stuck 8 ft cane next to it and it did reach on top of it.
So that's definately one to grow next year.

Oh..large yellow mangetout..lovely..that is one thing that I can complain about Golden sweet..they are too small.

I've had accidental crosses on some veg before..but I've never really had time or motivation to meddle to it in purpose. Now that I've been seed hunting for some years..I'm not even satisfied with that anymore.. ::) I want my 'OWN' veg seeds..not just 'others' to grow.
I love it on lottie when some of the old chaps come with their little mint tins full of seeds and are showing them for me like grown jewels.. ;D..something they grow from the crosses they've done all those years ago..
This year I brought from Finland some old landrace broad beans..those seeds come in few different 'shades'...I'm planning to have some fun with those too..maybe I start with separating the colours first and see what comes out of that 'experiment'. I'm not big lover of broadbeans..but these are small and apparantely used like soup beans..and the 'white' beans in mix are very 'mild' tasting...we'll see..

[goodlife]

 ;D

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Do you make your salads this way? ;D Noo...but I do sow them like that.. ;D

[goodlife]

Uh..those links will keep me busy for a while...thanks.. ;D
Another one I shopped this autumn is yellow peas. In Sweden pea soup is traditionally cooked from yellow peas and in Finland from green ones.. ::)..don't ask me why ???
Looking at the the Mendel pages..yellow seed is dominant..I've never grown any peas with true yellow seeds..so 'm wondering would the pod be usual green..paler green..or yellow?..or possibility for any of those?

[galina]

Uh..those links will keep me busy for a while...thanks.. ;D
Another one I shopped this autumn is yellow peas. In Sweden pea soup is traditionally cooked from yellow peas and in Finland from green ones.. ::)..don't ask me why ???
Looking at the the Mendel pages..yellow seed is dominant..I've never grown any peas with true yellow seeds..so 'm wondering would the pod be usual green..paler green..or yellow?..or possibility for any of those?

I'll pm you

[Ian Pearson]

Another valuable but less obvious way to develop a variety is to repeatedly save seed from an existing variety. A given variety (especially if it is open pollinated) will contain slight genetic variations amongst the seeds when you buy them. Commercial seed is mechanically harvested, so although the seed crop will have been rogued, no-one has meticulously selected seed from the strongest/tastiest/ plants.
When you sow them, a Darwinian filter is applied; some seed fails to germinate, some damp off because of 'your' soil fungi, some get eaten by 'your' pests, some get sick from 'your' diseases, some do badly in 'your' microclimate. The resulting survivors produce seed which you carefully select, save and re-sow. The resulting plants are collectively slightly more suited to 'your' growing conditions than the original bought seed.
Repeat this for five or ten years, and your saved seed will almost certainly perform better for you (but not necessarily for someone else in a different location) than the commercial ones.
At some point they could becomes noticeably different enough to be not just a selection, but a new variety.

[Digeroo]

My soil is very dry and I have been saving seeds of runner beans for years.  After about 4 years I started finding my own beans were more dry tolerant.   They now also have quite a distinctive bean colouration/shape.  I continue to save the ones which produce the best beans but now also select for the bean colour and shape. 

Mind you having done this for many years maybe as many as ten they have now been well out classed by St George and Moonlight. 

[goodlife]

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Repeat this for five or ten years, and your saved seed will almost certainly perform better for you..yes..I have plenty of those sort of saved varieties that I've grown on my location for years.
Particularly with garlic the improvement with quality and size is very noticeable, other one that I've noticed is tomato seeds when they are coming from totally different climate. From when you first buy 'seed' bulb it usually takes couple of years before you get best possible bulb/cloves out of that variety. That's why I usually like to get hold of bulbils..in same time that it takes new variety to 'naturalize' you my location..you can grow nice 'new' stock from bulbils and with less chance of bringing diseases with it.
Talking about garlic..I've got some new varieties planted to grow..and hopefully soon to share/swap here too.. ;)  ;D OH JOY..its going to be stinking year ahead.. ;D

[Robert_Brenchley]

I'd like a red-flowered, red-seeded, hardy broad bean. I can see a few years of selection on the way!

[goodlife]

I'd like a red-flowered, red-seeded, hardy broad bean. I can see a few years of selection on the way!

Are you already on process of doing it now?

[goodlife]

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They now also have quite a distinctive bean colouration/shape. What beans did you start with? Are you growing your runners for the pods or the seeds to eat?

[Robert_Brenchley]

I'd like a red-flowered, red-seeded, hardy broad bean. I can see a few years of selection on the way!

Are you already on process of doing it now?

I accidentally crossed Red Epicure and Aquadulce Claudia, and as I was thinking about it anyway, I decided to get started. I've been collecting interesting beans to grow together next year.

[Digeroo]

Actually I started with Liberty and streamline. Liberty have a particularly long thin pod for a runner bean.  I like green beans.   Not a great dried bean eater, though sometimes make my own baked beans but there is so much spice in that they their taste is not that important.  

I had one plant of streamline which did fantastically well and I cross it with Liberty to get a longer bean. Some of the Liberty had a distinctive red stripes down the edge of the bean and was particularly delicious.  I think they were already a rogues when I got them.

In the summer I like plate loads of green runner beans.  What I call OBs have a slim dark bean.  Not sure in the end what they crossed with.  Basically it was a case of selecting best flavour, length of bean and juiciness.  But I lost a lot of my breeding stock to aminopyralid in 2009.    I was totally gutted.  

[Ian Pearson]

Wouldn't it be good to have a dedicated section on 'veg breeding' here on A4A.

[Jayb]

Yes  :)