Seed sharing circle 2011

[galina]

Without meaning to prolong Galina's anguish, this made me realise that I haven't the slightest idea how many seeds I would get from a summer squash/courgette - a bit of a downer when I'm hoping to save seeds from a courgette this year!   :)  So, I guess the question is how many actual courgettes should I aim to produce for their seeds?  If I understand the more recent posts correctly, we are looking at 5ish seeds per person in the circle, or roughly 100 seeds.

Also, if I'm growing 4-6 plants to enable me to have enough flowers at the right stage and keep sufficient diversity, when it comes to pollinating the female flowers could I use the females from just one or two plants but the pollen from the rest...?

Last year I had 4 plants from one c maxima variety and did not manage to get any squashes handpollinated.  We were away for one week during which the first fruits set on all plants, and after that I never had a flower match.  

I got 80 odd seeds off one courgette and zero off another, both handpollinated of the same variety, both cut open a couple of weeks ago.

One of my handpollinated c maxima winter squashes I cut open yesterday and found 1 (one!) seed.   Better than nothing I guess.  Another three maxima were entirely seedless (but these were 'not' pollinated by nature).  They behave just like pollinated winter squashes, grew well, stored well.  I have another eight winter squashes storing on the windowsill (of which one was handpollinated) and we will see what their seed count is.  I have always wondered why I get so many seedless squashes and suspect that they can be tricked into believing that pollination has taken place when in actual fact it was too cold for the pollen to be 'live'.  And this happens both handpollinated and bee pollinated.  

In the greenhouse I always get seeds when I handpollinate.  I suspect the difference is a few degrees of warmth.  If we hit it just right and the right flowers are ready on a warm day, it is easy and there are lots of seeds.  If not, there are very few and frequently none at all in my case.   A nice warm summer and it is easy to get more seeds, a cool, rainy one and it is a struggle to get any.

Why do you plan to use only the females from two specific plants, rather than use every opportunity to isolate/handpollinate that presents itself?  Once you have two or three fruits set on whichever plants that happens to be,  you should have enough and there is no need for further handpollinating.  The plants with maturing courgettes will produce fewer courgettes for the kitchen.  Male flowers can pollinate more than one female flower.  It is good to use pollen from several plants, but selfing (self-pollinating) is ok for squashes too.  Using the earliest flowers for handpollination for seed, has been the most successful approach for me.

'Anguish' - oh yes!  Handpollinating squashes can be intensely frustrating  ;D  But please don't let me put you off.  

[galina]

[martinburo]

As far as I'm aware, pollen stays viable for a long time, so if you get male flowers before you get any female ones, you could dry the male flower in case you get female flowers later and no male ones.

[aj]

As far as I'm aware, pollen stays viable for a long time, so if you get male flowers before you get any female ones, you could dry the male flower in case you get female flowers later and no male ones.

Or tie the flower up until the female is ready.....

[Jayb]

Jayb, sorry I have never grown, let alone germinated, Mashua.  They look and sound such an interesting vegetable.  I hope you can get some joy from your seeds.

250+ corn plants is a huge undertaking.  I assume you are talking about seed saving.  You need a lot of land to do it all in one year.  The only practical way I know for smaller gardens/allotments, is to grow smaller patches and save over time.  Perhaps 50 of a variety every year for 5 years.  If you choose a variety that produces two or more ears you can eat one and let the other dry and freeze the seeds.  Say you started with 250 seeds, you could grow 50 each year and save seed.  Corn freezes well (with silica gel sachets begged from the shoe shop or baked rice).

Thought I'd paste this from a post I did earlier on another thread, "I've not had a chance to sow the remaining Mashua yet, I'm hoping to have a bit of a google to see if I can get a better idea how to start them. I've got a few plants (from tubers) to grow in a polytunnel and I hope this will give them a chance to flower and seed a bit earlier although not much point if I can't germinate the seed! Not sure if we have a hot summer how that may affect them, but it is a BIG if.  I'll hopefully have a few tubers spare at harvest if anyone fancies, if seeds are not looking good" Sorry if you have already read it, just seems to make sense to have it here.

I find "Lost Crops of the Incas: Little-Known Plants of the Andes with Promise for Worldwide Cultivation" fascinating http://www.nap.edu/openbook.php?record_id=1398&page=1

Thanks for that Martinburo

Apparently 250 corn plants is the minimum amount to be grown for seed saving purposes to avoid inbreeding depression. Although on reading Seeds of Kokopelli manual, it hints at this may not be necessary for heritage types. Welcome more views on this.

[Robert_Brenchley]

As far as I'm aware, pollen stays viable for a long time, so if you get male flowers before you get any female ones, you could dry the male flower in case you get female flowers later and no male ones.

Apparently freezing is the best way to store it. At the very least, put it in the fridge.

[goodlife]

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Apparently 250 corn plants is the minimum amount to be grown for seed saving purposes to avoid inbreeding depression. Although on reading Seeds of Kokopelli manual, it hints at this may not be necessary for heritage types
Yes, I've read that too from Kokopelli's book..and I've come across similar claims in other websites...I have to start digging them out ::)
I should imagine if any 'depression' would become apparent it would take few generations before it would make noticeable difference. But we will see..my aim is to grow around 100 plants..collect the pollen and handpollinate some of the female bits..enough for seed saving..even just few cobs should produce plentiful supply of seeds... ;)

[galina]

As far as I'm aware, pollen stays viable for a long time, so if you get male flowers before you get any female ones, you could dry the male flower in case you get female flowers later and no male ones.

From what I have read, pollen is only alive for one day or two days maximum, but a bit longer in the fridge.  It isn't very long, but definitely worthwhile using a male flower that is slightly older than a female.  The colour of pollen changes when the male flower gets older from bright yellow to slightly darker and that is an indicator that it has gone over.

The recommendations from the USA say to pollinate squash flowers after the dew has dried and before the midday heat, say before ten o'clock.  I think a bit later in the day is better here, because we are not so likely to see pollen scorched and killed by midday heat, as we don't get 35C plus temperatures very often.  Here it can be too cold.  From memory it needs to be about 25C for viable pollen, but I need to reread that.  Perhaps somebody can quote  definitive viable squash pollen temperatures.

[SueK]

Thank you everyone who took the trouble to answer my squash/courgette query!   :)  And no, Galina, you haven't put me off, although with variables such as temperature to take into consideration it may well be that taking every opportunity to isolate and hand pollinate flowers is, as you say, the best option.  It was the lure of the kitchen which led me to ask whether I could get away with using female flowers on one or two plants as I felt reluctant to lose the productivity of the plants with the maturing courgettes on, but from what you say it's not quite all or nothing.

On the bright side, at least I don't have to find space for 250 courgette plants.  ;D

[1066]

The recommendations from the USA say to pollinate squash flowers after the dew has dried ....

Interesting you say that Galina, as that has always been one of the things that has put me off trying to save squash seeds - getting up early and getting to the plot and trying to pollinate! And as you say so many of the books are US based, we (read I) need to adapt the recommendations in them. So maybe I stand a chance even if I'm not on the plot at daybreak!!

Forgot to say, the idea of 250 courgette plants is beyond my comprehension  ;D

[Jeannine]

The pollinatioin times for squash are to be able to catch the female at the right time.. it is not the pollen.. the female flower is only receptive for a wee while,,from about mid morning on..but not for long.

XX Jeannine

[1066]

from about mid morning on..but not for long.

that's a lie in then!  ;D
Am going to try again this year, but have yet to decide which of my beauties to try and save from.

[galina]

The pollinatioin times for squash are to be able to catch the female at the right time.. it is not the pollen.. the female flower is only receptive for a wee while,,from about mid morning on..but not for long.
XX Jeannine

Where did you read this,  Jeannine?  From what I can glean, the female is receptive as soon as the petals open on their own accord and before they wilt, provided the stigma inside is not wet.  In hotter climates, this wilting can happen quite fast and the female flower can wilt by early afternoon the same day, but not here.  There is a slightly gluey substance on the stigma which makes the pollen stick, unless rain or heavy due washes it away.  The reason that it is better to use more than one male plant is because of the pollen (and diversity), rather than the female plant.  But my seedsaving books are a few years old and there may have been new advice since.

Jayb,  looking through the books here, 200 corn plants is the maximum necessary quoted for maintaining a variety and 100 the minimum.  200plus will give opportunity for selecting the best 100.  Another book recommends 150 with a minimum of 100.  

This is a quote from Suzanne Ashworth's 'Seed to Seed' (first edition) - page 190: Inbreeding depression can usually be avoided by growing 200 plants of each variety (100 plants at the very least), which should maintain adequate genetic variability and diversity within a population.  Out of those 200, work with about 100 of the best plants that are the most true-to-type.

Inbreeding depression can also be minimized by never working with both the tassels and the ears on the same plants and being sure to make a mixture of seed from 25-50 ears taken from different plants.  Always try to bag the tassels of 50 plants and the ears of 50 other plants (25 of each is an absolute minimum).   eoq

According to this, absolute minimum is 50 selected plants, better 100 good plants, selected from a minimum of 100, better selected from 200 or more plants.  Sounds like half of any plants are for eating (those not selected for handpollination and producing seed) and you don't need all the cobs on the hand pollinated plants for seed either.  On the other hand, if you let your corn be pollinated naturally by wind (if there is no corn grown around where you live) you would need to pull up weaker or untypical plants before they tassle - no cobs for eating.  Whichever way you look at it, saving sweet corn is a big undertaking and I wish you the best of luck with it.

How much we can harvest whilst seedsaving is a consideration and re-reading Ashworth, there is quite a bit lost for generating sweet corn seed, but by no means everything.  SueK, with courgettes it is the same - not a total loss.  If you grow 5 good plants and 2 or 3 handpollinated fruits set on 2 or 3 plants, that leaves half your plants producing normally and half with reduced production.  

[Jeannine]

I truly don't remember where Galina, just a bit of info that I have had in my head for years,not an uncommon  idea here.

I actually came on to this post to back out of the circle. The rain here just will not let up, we have nothing sowed other than tomatoes which are in the greenhouse on higher ground and a couple of things just started in the disabled bed which is waist high and in planned for perennial stuff. Everything else is a mud patch, John is just sinking in and apart from 2 days the forecast is rain for the next two weeks.

So folks, I am clearly unreliable and no point in not  being straight up about it.

There may be a few tomato seeds but as I am mostly growing for the foodbank, there are very few heirlooms this year apart from a couple that I reaaly need to do.

It is driving me nuts, all my lovely pea seeds are sitting in a box, fortunately I did not start them.

My snips which were planted in loo rolls have had to be thrown away, broadies are still in peat pots in the greenhouse, I don't know how much longer I can hang on to them.

At this point things I should be starting I am not ..don't know what to do. Really cheesed off, it is as if winter is still with us...waiting, waiting..

I shall keep an eye on the topic and if I can manage anything of course I will share.

XX Jeannine

[1066]

what a shame Jeannine, but as you say maybe you can pop back in on the circle later on if things pick up for you. Hope so!!
It must be so frustrating, I know playing a waiting game has never been one of my strengths!!

Well the climbing peas, so far / cross fingers / touch wood etc seem to be romping away. I just hope I can keep them watered, its so dry here, we're crying out for rain. 

And the Kale - it has flowered superbly, and has been a cloud of yellow flowers, and has been a real attraction to bees. Just waiting for the pods to start forming..........
The salads sown last autumn and planted out in Feb, with a bit of cover are looking a treat, will see if anything is worth saving from those.
My other idea is to try and save Radish seed - the one that forms in in a pod, and the name of which / the seed packet are alluding me right now!  ::)

1066  :)

[Jayb]

Sorry folks I've been a bit awol just recently, just catching up with this thread. I'm a bit behind on some things and not quite sure where I am with plants for the circle, but I'll update once I've taken stock. I'm growing several things from Tom Wagner and maybe I'll be able to include some of these.

Thanks for the corn info Galina, I'm going to try my best with Painted Mountain corn. It seems fairly multipurpose being able to be eaten fresh (though not sweet sweetcorn)Those not needed for seed I hope will be used up as decoration, I thought I could give some away or perhaps incorporate as a present somehow. Also I'm hoping the chickens will help me out, possible some piggies and I've been looking to try my hand at producing a little flour! I should end up with loads of roughage for the compost heap which will be great although I think it maybe a one off growing experience.....

Jeannine, don't be daft, you are reliable, just sounds like your weather has been very poor. Must be disheartening and incredibly frustrating when all you want to do is get going on your new plottie. Please don't feel pressured to produce anything for the circle, but stay in and see how things go. I'm sure it will all pick up. I'm always amazed how quickly plants grow on and produce a harvest.

It is fab sharing heirloom varieties but equally good to share in a new open pollinated veggie too. What about some Tiny Toes seed? I really enjoyed them last year and think they are super.

1066 Rats Tails!
I think is the name of an edible podded radish. It all sounds to be going really well with you, now if you and Jeannine could just do a deal on the weather  ;D

I wonder how everyone else is getting on, its great hearing the progress?

[Robert_Brenchley]

Rat'sTail is right, though I have another one; I'd have to check the name. Haven't planted it yet. I'm planting peas like mad, and I've got half a dozen beans in. There should be plenty of seed.

[martinburo]

I wonder how everyone else is getting on, its great hearing the progress?

Lots of things coming into flower, including the sorrel and spring cabbage, so am hopeful of a good seed harvest in due course.

[goodlife]

I have some salads growing for seed saving..but still far away from flowering yet...other then that not much to report as yet..I'm not rushing to sow much as yet..weather is turned much cooler now and I'm not going to plant out until it is 'safe'..I'm sticking to the usual end of May-first week of June rule for tender crops.
All this warm weather we've had is sooo deceiving and makes you want to get crops going.
I've got load of bucket crops going..drawf beans and various peas..first lot is just started to flower ;D

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Jeannine, don't be daft, you are reliable... ;D I'll second that..but they weren't my words :-X..I would not dare to call you such... ;D ;D

[galina]

Jeannine, don't be daft, you are reliable, just sounds like your weather has been very poor. Must be disheartening and incredibly frustrating when all you want to do is get going on your new plottie. Please don't feel pressured to produce anything for the circle, but stay in and see how things go. I'm sure it will all pick up. I'm always amazed how quickly plants grow on and produce a harvest.

Agree wholeheartedly.  The time to drop out is at the end of the season, not before you've even started growing circle crops.

Grandpa Admires lettuce is in the ground and bottle cloched.  Peas are coming along nicely, first ones flowering.  Rocket is flowering - is rocket seed too mundane for the circle?  Courgette seed is harvested.  Tomatoes are getting ready to be planted into the greenhouse.  Not sure which will make it into circle seeds yet. Beans and squash still need sowing into pots.

[Jeannine]

Thanks for the votes of confidence, I just don't want  to let anyone down.

Jayb with Tiny Toes, I really wanted t ogrow it  for a bit longer just to be sure. I hadn't actually planted any of the seeds I kept from lasy year but I will do that right now just to see how it goes.



I am so envious of you all, we still have mostly rain although today is dry, but the plots are jiust thick sloppy mud and water.

I guess it has to stop sometime. I haver manages to sow in the disabled bed and the greenhouse,, but that is it.

XX Jeannine