Can one believe this..........

[terrace max]

I reckon you could pick up the Bible, Glyn, and find all sorts of justifications for all sorts of horrible things. In fact, many people around the world do...In its application Islam has a far better record of tolerance than most other desert religions.

My response to this article is that Saudi violence in society is overt, the violence in our society is covert - usually played out in countries far away. It's the same thing just expressed differently.

Wahabi-ism (a form of extreme Islam) has always been fostered by the West to keep the populace of oil rich states in line. Ultimately, we are Mr Al-Beshi's paymaster - just like we used to sponsor Saddam Hussein and Osama Bin Laden. I guess that's the thing about using violence - eventually it bites you back?

On the subject of whether this thread is appropriate: IMO debate is always healthy. It would be a refreshing change if Glyn's threads occasionally didn't start from such an extreme right wing position...but, hey, it gives us something to talk about...

[terrace max]

[undercarriage plan]

Have to say, this whole issue is why I don't belong to any organised, named religion. I have my beliefs that apply to me, and how I live my life.  Surely all have their good points and bad points, though think the Budhists seem pretty level headed. If people are going to kill, they'll always find a justification be it religion or plain greediness. Lottie

[Glyn]

I guess that's the thing about using violence - eventually it bites you back?

"Quite right"

The world  is becoming uncontrollable "All fall short of the glory of god" which makes us all wrong, hence our inability to govern ourselves in peace.
Does that make sense?

[Tulipa]

I lived in a middle eastern country for five years, which governed by Shariya law which is what this man is carrying out.  Whilst I don't begin to understand or believe it is right, it was the safest place I have ever been.  It is all written in the Koran and it is what he and millions of other muslims believe to be right as it is the word of Allah.  I think we are all entitled to what we believe.

[Robert_Brenchley]

Exactly, and sharia is grossly misrepresented in the Western media. If you ignore the Salafis, then the maximum punishment for theft, say, is to have your hand cut off. Awful, but probably not as bad as our history of hanging petty thieves on circumstantial evidence. It only happens if it's a significant theft, so it wouldn't apply to a petty thief anyway if sharia is properly applied (which it often isn't, but that's another story). The thief has to be a Muslim, of sound mind, with no mitigating circumstances. There have to be two eyewitnesses, of unimpeachable reputation, to the actual act of theft - no circumstantial evidence accepted - and if there's any doubt about the evidence, the witnesses get 80 lashes for false witness,which is a terrible crime in Islam. If you're hungry and you steal food, you've got an excuse, so there's no penalty. If you're a scholar and you steal a book, there's no penalty, since scholars are slightly mad anyway. And so on. If it's properly applied, there's no crime worth mentioning, nobody gets banged up for crimes they haven't committed, and almost nobody gets their hands chopped off.

[Tulipa]

Thanks Robert, I knew you could explain it better than me!

[Glyn]

the maximum punishment for theft, say, is to have your hand cut off. Awful, but probably not as bad as our history of hanging petty thieves on circumstantial evidence.

I think the point here Robert, as I've stated before, is that we don't do that to our citizens anymore. They obviously still do? :(

[terrace max]

...but isn't the point that we're propping up this nasty regime so our oil supply is secure? If we hadn't sold them all those arms in the first place Saudi society would probably have kicked out the extremists ages ago. What you're saying Glyn is like burning down your house and then complaining about the accommadation!

[Glyn]

If we hadn't sold them all those arms in the first place Saudi society would probably have kicked out the extremists ages ago.

If you believe that, then that's exactly what they want you to believe.
We are, and always will be infidels to them. This you know goes way back before the discovery of oil. If the oil was stopped today, they wouldn't, because we're hated, even though they live amongst us. And before you jump on me for painting all Muslim's with the same brush, I am talking extremists.

[terrace max]

I think you've got it back to front again Glyn

I think we're hated by most Saudis for political rather than religious reasons, like keeping a corrupt Wahabi elite in power there and the plight of the Palestinians. If it wasn't for these disgraceful facts there would be no grist for the mill of the religious nutters...

[Glyn]

I think this subject has become a bit of a moot point TM.
I don't believe in any people (including the crusaders,or anyone) who cowardly murder or maim in the name of God.
The issue here is "capital punishment" and it bothers me that there are people who are living in the western world, yes, here and the UK, who are administering these barbaric punishments to their people right under our noses now!
Would you really want these sort of people living in your town...because if you don't, too late they're already here.

[terrace max]

As you say Glyn it's probably time to call this one quits. But I think we can agree on a couple of things: religious zealots - not good, capital punishment - bad.

[Derekthefox]

I concur, this has been a very interesting debate, with reasoned input.

Thank you

Derekthefox

[Glyn]

Cheers TM. It was beginning to get a bit claustrophobic.
But I have to say this. In my opinion you were always 99.9% on target anyhow.
Nice one mate..

Glyn ;)

[Glyn]

Thanks Derek.

[Robert_Brenchley]

I don't think anyone is administering 'capital punishment' under our noses, by which I assume you mean in the UK. Murders, yes, if you're referring to 'honour killings' which are by no means exclusive to Muslims. But capital punishment implies a legal framework, and that's definitely not present here!

[Bionic Wellies]

How on earth do you actually resond to one of these sodding things.  If the system had allows me I would have said "leave it where it is" but being a moronic computer it won't actually let me vote (nothing personal Dan).

I get a little cheezed off when threads get removedbecause of political corrrectness. If people are so small minded that they cannot accommodate other views then they should naff off elsewhere - not get others to be removed.  There is room for all viewpoint - even if we don't agree with them.  I don;t always agree with some of the tings that are written here - but I reserve the right to challenge them.

-- Alan

[Glyn]

Sorry Bionic. Voting was available for only 7 day's. So the reason you can't get in is because it is now locked.

Glyn

[Bionic Wellies]

Went off on one there didn't I ?!  -  By way of an excuse ... I am a software engineer and come across a lot of software that doesn't make life easy - actually gets in the way - what I was really whinging about was the fact that it just did nothing; didn't tell me that it was locked, expired, fed up, tired or anything - just nothing.  It doen't take a lot of effort on the part of the designer and coder to output a message letting folk know why it isn't doing what was expected - it what you would expect from another person - why not from a machine?

b.t.w. - I would still have voted to keep the thread visible.