Author Topic: Lets have a winter argument.  (Read 797 times)

ACE

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Lets have a winter argument.
« on: December 03, 2018, 13:36:58 »
Ethical vegetables, are they still ethical if they are grown in dung. Dung from farmed animals that are going on our tables. I don't mind people being vegans, but I do not like being lectured on what I should eat from some of the militant vegans.

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Lets have a winter argument.
« on: December 03, 2018, 13:36:58 »

johhnyco15

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Re: Lets have a winter argument.
« Reply #1 on: December 03, 2018, 14:10:59 »
i look at it the manure is there is the gas different if we use it to grow stuff no in fact we are off setting the co2  by the crops we are growing which would not grow aswell if we didnt recycle the manure by putting it on our plots in the first place so the vegan brigade should be thanking as for the work we do in putting to gooduse what would otherwise be left to steam
johhnyc015  may the plot be with you

Palustris

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Re: Lets have a winter argument.
« Reply #2 on: December 03, 2018, 16:43:06 »
And are Vegans responsible for the increase in the use of plastics? Since they will not wear clothes made from wool or leather or any other animal based material they must therefore wear stuff made from plastic Try buying linen or cotton shoes!
Gardening is the great leveller.

Tee Gee

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Re: Lets have a winter argument.
« Reply #3 on: December 03, 2018, 17:08:12 »
The thing that puzzles me is in the past it was often difficult to get young kids to eat their vegetables yet when they got to University/Collage they become 'vegans' . :drunken_smilie:

BarriedaleNick

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Re: Lets have a winter argument.
« Reply #4 on: December 03, 2018, 17:35:08 »
If you are after an answer then I think most vegans would appreciate that it is almost impossible to distinguish what veg are grown using what manures.  There is no system by which fruit and veg are grown which tells us what all the inputs are.  So the question of is it ethical is moot as it is practically unknowable in the real world.
 However of course what vegans are working towards is “In an ideal world, we would like to see our crops grown with no animal inputs.”  In that world as the world stops eating meat based protein then the production of manure would cease or slow down to negligible amounts.  There would still be some and human manure has been used historically!

I am not quite sure what johhnyco15 is saying but if there are no food animals then there is no manure and livestock produces huge amounts of greenhouse gases

"The 400-page report by the Food and Agricultural Organisation, entitled Livestock's Long Shadow, also surveys the damage done by sheep, chickens, pigs and goats. But in almost every case, the world's 1.5 billion cattle are most to blame. Livestock are responsible for 18 per cent of the greenhouse gases that cause global warming, more than cars, planes and all other forms of transport put together."

As for the plastic consumption by vegans - I don't really think that the world is drowning in plastic because of vegans.  Most vegans I know are normally of an environmentally conscious mind set and they have been buying clothes made from natural materials for decades.  Rubber, Cotton, coir and coconut, bamboo, kelp, cork and hemp come to mind but of course like the rest of us they wear stuff made from oil based products.

I say all of this as a committed meat eater..

ACE

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Re: Lets have a winter argument.
« Reply #5 on: December 03, 2018, 17:50:15 »
I put this thread on as it is Vegan silly season, Rename the village called Wool, barracking meat eaters in a restaurant, moaning about reindeer at a petting farm and now somebody want veganism as a philosophical belief. I don't care how people live, eat, worship etc but don't want to change especially under pressure. We shall discuss this tonight down the Shoulder of Mutton, if they hav'nt closed it as well.

BarriedaleNick

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Re: Lets have a winter argument.
« Reply #6 on: December 03, 2018, 18:36:32 »
Rename the village called Wool was PETA which are not a strictly vegan organisation. I disagree with a lot of what they do but they are really good at getting attention, press and people talking about issues - even if it manages to annoy half of the population.  They weren't really serious about changing the village name just about getting press coverage - the Director said "This is just a fun way to share the facts with people."  I think most people just saw the headline and were laughing. 

I think the ethical vegan guy is kinda interesting but it is only a tribunal.
I admit that I hate evangelical believers in anything.  I had to blank a few facebook friends who post nothing but anti meat videos.  It does nothing to promote their beliefs - it just tries to shock and vilify carnivores .  If they posted more about the benefits of meat free I suspect more people may pay attention.

ancellsfarmer

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Re: Lets have a winter argument.
« Reply #7 on: December 03, 2018, 19:59:16 »
Try an experiment.
Work out how large a plot you would need if you were to be entirely self sufficient as an omnivore, then recalculate the area you would need to have if you were entirely self sufficient as a strict vegetarian. Finally, calculate the area you would need to be entirely self sufficient, while being strictly vegan.
The population at large is dependent on inputs from beyond their own plot, therefore they buy rather than produce their dietary requirements. If that was repudiated (or not possible), the majority would STARVE! The success of the modern food supply is the only thing that lets those extremists enjoy the 'right' to be so condescending to the majority of us.
Freelance cultivator qualified within the University of Life.

Beersmith

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Re: Lets have a winter argument.
« Reply #8 on: December 03, 2018, 20:58:46 »
Reading these comments I can only register surprise.

I am ashamed to say that among my friends I do not have any vegans. So I don't get lectured, and I was unaware that vegetables could even be unethical. Am I reading the wrong newspapers?

I know one or two vegetarians, indeed I sometimes think that I could become vegetarian. At present I still eat meat dairy and eggs but I eat meat less often than I once did, perhaps twice, sometimes three times each week. I eat a lot of vegetables, I like chese and enjoy my diet, so probably not. But I  think many of us might be a bit healthier if we ate a little less meat. I doubt that I could ever become fully vegan. 

But I didn't realize it was such a contentious issue and that so many people were so upset about it. The controversy seems to have passed me by. I mean if we really want a good argument, I can think of dozens of hot topics that would seem far more urgent than a very very tiny group  of well meaning people saying let's not kill animals. I may not agree but I find it hard to get animated about it.

But don't get me started on Trump, brexit, global warming, Putin, the housing shortage, racism, insecticides, excessive use of antibiotics NHS waiting lists,etc,etc. Now mention those and I'd be up for an epic debate.



Not mad, just out to mulch!

Obelixx

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Re: Lets have a winter argument.
« Reply #9 on: December 03, 2018, 21:38:46 »
Probably a more interesting debate too Beersmith - housing, health etc that is, not Br***t.

We are omnivores tho I don't really like beef.  Find it a bit dull after the second mouthful, even well brought up and hung. However, Australian scientists have discovered that just adding a little dried seaweed to cattle feed reduces flatulence and belching by 99% so that is clearly a way forward for the meat industry.  Irish farmers are to adopt it - https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/seaweed-shown-to-reduce-99-methane-from-cattle-1.3156975

Love veggies and we're aiming to be self suffciient as far as we can because I don't want unnecessary chemicals and I do want better tasting varieties as well as providing a haven for pollinators and birds and other beneficial wildlife.     

I don't mind people passing on information to enlighten me about stuff but I don't want lectures or prohibitions or abuse from people with different views who think they know better.   I know what suits me better than anyone thank you.
Obxx - Vendée France

ACE

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Re: Lets have a winter argument.
« Reply #10 on: December 03, 2018, 21:41:09 »



But don't get me started on Trump, brexit, global warming, Putin, the housing shortage, racism, insecticides, excessive use of antibiotics NHS waiting lists,etc,etc. Now mention those and I'd be up for an epic debate.




Don't worry we wont.

Beersmith

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Re: Lets have a winter argument.
« Reply #11 on: December 03, 2018, 23:12:54 »
but I don't want lectures or prohibitions

Well I fully agree.

My thinking was simply that among all the political groups, business corporations, religions, and pressure groups that exist today vegans are the least likely to have any impact on your life.

Monsanto may lobby to overturn bans on neonicotinoids, religious groups constantly seek to repeal abortion laws, fossil fuel interests constantly lobby the governments to relax regulations that control fracking, the European research group is striving for a hard Brexit (sorry for the mention), the GWPF put out a constant stream of misleading information about climate change, landlords in parliament oppose any regulations to require houses to be fit for habitation.. Many of these groups yield real power and influence and have real impacts.

Trying to keep things in proportion a group that simply tries to persuade us that killing things is not nice is the least of my concerns.
« Last Edit: December 03, 2018, 23:18:28 by Beersmith »
Not mad, just out to mulch!

ACE

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Re: Lets have a winter argument.
« Reply #12 on: December 04, 2018, 07:22:57 »



Trying to keep things in proportion a group that simply tries to persuade us that killing things is not nice is the least of my concerns.

So go and start your own argument then.



[/quote]


Edited by moderator
« Last Edit: December 04, 2018, 08:29:10 by pumpkinlover »

pumpkinlover

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Re: Lets have a winter argument.
« Reply #13 on: December 04, 2018, 08:35:23 »
Ace- I have removed a bit from your post.

Best to stick to discussions not arguments anyway. I suggest a cup of chamomile  :coffee2: as they arn't good for the blood pressure.

If you need  an argument maybe go and get some manure dug in on the plot then you might not have the energy. Unless the militant vegans are on your allotment site in which case you can just waft the manure odour their way.



Palustris

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Re: Lets have a winter argument.
« Reply #14 on: December 04, 2018, 10:25:12 »
So here is a question. Why when vegetarians come to eat here, we have to make them a vegetarian meal, but when we go there they do not make us an omnivorous meal?
As for the ethical vegetable poser, ours definitely are. We do not use animal manures on the garden, not for any 'ethical' problems, but because in the past all the animal stuff has been full of weed seeds and we have enough weeds of our own already without bringing in more.
My Father once said to me many years ago, that the hardest thing to do was to allow someone an opinion which differed from your own.
Gardening is the great leveller.

Beersmith

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Re: Lets have a winter argument.
« Reply #15 on: December 04, 2018, 10:51:24 »



Trying to keep things in proportion a group that simply tries to persuade us that killing things is not nice is the least of my concerns.

So go and start your own argument then.

I





Edited by moderator
[/quote]

I have started my own argument.

 It is about the subject matter. My argument is that it is not worth blowing a gasket and getting totally outraged by a tiny minority group with very little influence and whose message, if somewhat naive and in my view a bit midguided, is essentially harmless.
Not mad, just out to mulch!

galina

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Re: Lets have a winter argument.
« Reply #16 on: December 04, 2018, 11:09:54 »
This is an easy question to answer Palustris.  There is a restaurant in London that prides itself on being fully inclusive where friends of all religions or none can go together and eat the same food. 

I guess this is what happens when we voluntarily restrict ourself both by catering for vegetarians and by eating vegetarian food when visiting.  We can eat and handle the vegetarian food and they can't or won't handle meat.  Friendship (of which eating together is a large part) is surely more important than insisting on a foodstuff that is problematic for others which we can have any other day of the year.

Friends or family do come with all sorts of needs and foibles we need to allow for, like greatgran needs her special chair or help to get up or a nap, kids need an energy sapping run and a play session and their favourite video rather than being couped up all day in one room on a visit and so on.  Not all extra needs are food related, but as good hosts we try to accommodate them all to give others a good time and be inclusive.   :wave:   

ACE

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Re: Lets have a winter argument.
« Reply #17 on: December 04, 2018, 11:42:00 »

 a tiny minority group with very little influence and whose message, if somewhat naive and in my view a bit midguided, is essentially harmless.
  These tiny minority groups grow and grow, then they have the influence to change things, quite rightly so in a lot of cases. But it will not be long before a vegan can call me a tw@t for eating meat but if I call them one back it will be a hate crime.

pumpkinlover

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Re: Lets have a winter argument.
« Reply #18 on: December 04, 2018, 12:59:53 »
Can I ask where this is all coming from Ace?
Is the IOW  a hot bed of  militant veganism or have you been reading the Daily Wail?   :glasses9:



ACE

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Re: Lets have a winter argument.
« Reply #19 on: December 04, 2018, 14:19:19 »
It just seem that every day there is another Vegan outrage, especially down south where there is a larger group of hipsters that go with the current trend, last year it was never watching Game of Thrones, this year it is I'm a vegan. Phrases like 'taking home the bacon'  will be changed to 'taking home the beans' “feeding a fed horse” instead of “flogging a dead horse” and “taking the flowers by the thorns” instead of “taking the bull by the horns”.  They will be getting the dentists to take out our canine teeth next.  Just look at the silliness that came about with the new bank notes. Like I said it is just Vegan silly season and I don't really give a d@mn but as it is mid winter and we are now starting to get a bit of cabin fever, why not have a bit of a squabble, we will all be friends again come the spring.


Think yourself lucky it was not Brexit (spit) that I wanted to debate
« Last Edit: December 04, 2018, 14:21:35 by ACE »

 

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