Topic: Jock Independance (again)

[SueK]

Must visit before I need a passport.....

...We could have gone to Edinburgh when Jim was made redundant from Standard Life  and lots more

Well, years ago, before we had the children, we considered moving to Scotland - I think it had something to do with uni fees at the time.
The subject came up again this morning because, as someone else pointed out, vast swathes of England north of Watford could not tolerate the removal of large numbers of MPs of their political persuasion from parliament.  It's just got to be said.  The prospect fills me with horror.

Incidentally, I don't remember who mentioned it but most prescription in the UK are provided free of charge.

[Poolcue]

One benefit is that we won't have to mess about with the clocks for the benefit of scottish farmers.

[grawrc]

You know I've never understood how it helps? In the depth of winter, in Scotland, there's maybe six hours of daylight. I don't see what difference it makes having sunrise at 8.45 or 9.45 and sunset at 2.45 or 3.45. And in summer the sun starts rising about 4am and doesn't set till 11pm -ish. So why do we need to change the clocks?

[Nigel B]

I don't understand it either Grawc.
I remember talk of this from long ago when it was said the main reason was so that school-kids in Scotland could go to and return from school in the light and therefore at less risk.
Other than that, farmers tend to work according to the hours of available daylight, not the clock.
Are there other reasons, or is it just politics?

[lincsyokel2]

Do you not realise the sumptuous and luxurious public services, and many other things like no Uni fees,  are all subsidised by the englsih

Looking at a map of the United Kingdom, I feel bound to disagree somewhat with this statement of 'fact'. It seems to me we all pay tax.

The Uk subsidies scoitland to the tune of £1012 per head. They get approx £22 billion a year.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/columnists/simonheffer/6123095/England-pays-through-the-nose-for-the-luxury-of-Scottish-values.html

Scottish Executive figures for 2009-10 show that spending per capita in Scotland was £11,370, versus £10,320 for the UK. In other words, spending in Scotland was £1,030 - or 10% higher - per head of population than the UK average
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-16477990


Even if Scotland keppt all its oil revenue, woudl woudl still have to give them £6 billion a year to keep them i nthe luxury the english cant afford
http://james.lab6.com/2006/12/20/does-scotland-pay-its-own-way/

So, sorry, mate, its a fact. We pay for the scots free prescriptions, free universitiues, better NHS and better roads. Scottish independance will mean penuary and poverty for your country. Good luck.

I love the way you don't 'get it' when anyone makes a point you don't agree with.;)
Look. We ALL pay tax. How YOUR government decides to allocate that money is a problem YOU have with YOUR government. Never mind your op-ed pieces that back up your ultra-nationalist views. Why are you on Scotland's case about that?
Oh, and it's not my Country mate. I live in Wales, where we enjoy even more of your tax money with free prescriptions. :)

And dont go counting on North Sea Oil, thats dead and buried, the peak went past years ago, and the world is slowly weaning itself off whats left (which in the North Sea is practically nothing).

Up in Shetland, they are preparing the second phase of their oil terminal. The French oil and gas company, Total, is to invest £500m in a new gas plant at Sullom Voe which is expected to open for business in 2014. It's not finished by a long chalk.

Still. Sorry to interrupt your rant with facts.... carry on. ;)

North Sea oil is running out, there winding down Forte and Piper. You have 17 years tops of diminshing returns.

http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/news/article-1584925/North-Sea-oil-is-running-out.html
http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2008/may/04/oil.energy
http://www.utility-exchange.co.uk/north-sea-oil-gas-may-run-out-in-just-17-years-15002/


Sorry to interrupt your wet dream with facts..............you need to stop listining to the bollox Alex Salmond is filling your head with and do your own research.  You'll soons see he's spouting a pile of crap to con you into voting him abetter job. He's the Scottish Tony Blair, and look what ours turned out like, a liar and ac rook.

My wet dreams? :D Pull the other one Yokel, it's got bells on.
The Oil still has a lot of years left as even you admit, and as for the Gas......................? A £500Million investment doesn't sound like they are paying for the last dregs does it?
Meanwhile, I couldn't care less about Salmond. He has not filled my head with anything old chap.
Now you have a nice day, y'hear?.... :)

See the difference is i provide links to back upo my point of view, you provide........................nothing. Theres no one anywhere agrees with you, wheras theres plenty of educated, intelligent people in the know, from  the ONS, the Telegraph and The Economist who agree with me.

If you are going to debate on the internet, you need to start providing supporting evidence, otherwise your arguments have no merit or substance.  Lets see your evidence, or we can assume ther isnt any, and you POV is a pile of guesswork and hot air. if yo uare going to cal me wrong, yo uare also calling the BBCc, the Telegraph, the Economist, several government think tanks and many other very smart people wrong, includinmg academics and industrialists, and you need some seriously good counter evidence to do that, not just your own personal bluster and waffle.

[Mr Smith]

Watching Salmond on Channel4 news I just don't like the way he is presenting all this, remember Scotland is a split bigotted country West coast and then the rest of them, just watch the local football Derby's they don't even like each other, just hope that it does not turn nasty when Dave tells Alex what he is going to do,

[lincsyokel2]

Watching Salmond on Channel4 news I just don't like the way he is presenting all this, remember Scotland is a split bigotted country West coast and then the rest of them, just watch the local football Derby's they don't even like each other, just hope that it does not turn nasty when Dave tells Alex what he is going to do,

He';s manipulating the scots to set himself up as lord and master of scotland.  This guy is doing what he is doing primarily for personal enrichment, and it's no better than the way Blair and Mandelson exploited there position, and used public money, to set themselves up for life.   You have no idea  how much i hate corrupt, lying, manipulative self serving politicians like him (and Mandelson, and Blair, and while we are on the subject, Merkel).

[ceres]

You have no idea  how much i hate corrupt, lying, manipulative self serving politicians like him (and Mandelson, and Blair, and while we are on the subject, Merkel).

I think perhaps we do  ;) ;D ;) ;D ;) ;D

[Carol]

Alex Salmond is an obnoxious little twirp.  I cannot look at him without a shudder and my OH turns purple in the face whenever Salmond opens his big mouth.  If he was to disappear the rest of the SNP brigade would be nothing. 
I do hope that the rest of the Population of Scotland see him for what he is. 

[OllieC]

I suspect that because the Tories bought the result of the AV referendum & were allowed to lie in their campaign (as long as it wasn't about a person), they think they will be able to buy the result of this. Sadly, the more Scots see David Cameron saying it's a bad idea, the more we'll think it's a good one! Interestingly, the SNP are in bed with Murdoch so his empire might feel conflicted.

[Two Choices]

Seems there might be a business opportunity for selling Blue Face Paint north of the border and a remake of a certain film portraying a Scottish folk hero ....  I wonder if Mel is busy these days!

[Mr Smith]

Watching Salmond on Channel4 news I just don't like the way he is presenting all this, remember Scotland is a split bigotted country West coast and then the rest of them, just watch the local football Derby's they don't even like each other, just hope that it does not turn nasty when Dave tells Alex what he is going to do,

He';s manipulating the scots to set himself up as lord and master of scotland.  This guy is doing what he is doing primarily for personal enrichment, and it's no better than the way Blair and Mandelson exploited there position, and used public money, to set themselves up for life.   You have no idea  how much i hate corrupt, lying, manipulative self serving politicians like him (and Mandelson, and Blair, and while we are on the subject, Merkel).

Quoting Mr O' Reilly from 'Fawlty towers', 'I tink I do', :)

[lincsyokel2]

And something else for the scots to think about:

UK national debt is forecast to hit around £1.4trillion by 2014, when Mr Salmond says he wants to hold an independence referendum. At around 10 per cent of the UK total, Scotland’s allocation of public spending is higher than its share of population.

If its share of the national debt is allocated on this basis, it will be saddled with debts of around £140billion. Also, an independent Scotland should also be made to take back the £187billion in toxic assets of the Royal Bank of Scotland, currently held by the Treasury.

So vote for independance, it'll cost you  £327 billion. That'll turn you in another Greece from day one. And lets not forget, as a new independant country, it'll have to reapply to join the EU, and will be forced to adopt the Euro. Talk about well stuffed. Crippled with debt and its economy run by the Bundesbank from the start, good luck with that.

[ACE]

They weren't sure about independence until our MPs suggested everyone should have two alcohol-free days a week

[pumkinlover]

 ;D ;D ;D- at Ace!

[shirlton]

Oh well another peaceful start to my day. ;D

[Obelixx]

I don't see why this discussion has to get so unpleasant and offensive.

The facts are that the average English income, and thus tax contribution, is higher per person that it is in Scotland, Wales or Northern Ireland.    None of the three smaller countries earns enough to pay for its infrastructure of education, health serviecs, social services, tarnsport or anything else without being subsidised by the English tax payer.  It would be more equitable to have an equal per capita budget spent in every region.

It is also ludicrous to think that Brussels is a bogey man that will take over everything.  The Eurocrats who run the EU come from all the member states in proportion to their population so there are vast numbers of British civil servants assigned to the EU and diplomats a plenty too.  They all get a say in the day to day running of the EU and future policy making and believe me, there are already plenty of Scots amongst them.   It's just that some countries are politically more astute and more wiley.

The main problem is that the English/British civil servants in Europe haven't the wit to take the opportunities offered for influencing decisions their way and for taking advantage of what is on offer because they still think of Europe as them and us and not a union of European countries.   If they had, we might have had better measures in place for ensuring the Greeks and Irish and Italians and the rest were actuially meeting the economic rules for Euro zone membership and maintaining economic discipline once in.

[Mr Smith]

I don't see why this discussion has to get so unpleasant and offensive.

The facts are that the average English income, and thus tax contribution, is higher per person that it is in Scotland, Wales or Northern Ireland.    None of the three smaller countries earns enough to pay for its infrastructure of education, health serviecs, social services, tarnsport or anything else without being subsidised by the English tax payer.  It would be more equitable to have an equal per capita budget spent in every region.

It is also ludicrous to think that Brussels is a bogey man that will take over everything.  The Eurocrats who run the EU come from all the member states in proportion to their population so there are vast numbers of British civil servants assigned to the EU and diplomats a plenty too.  They all get a say in the day to day running of the EU and future policy making and believe me, there are already plenty of Scots amongst them.   It's just that some countries are politically more astute and more wiley.

The main problem is that the English/British civil servants in Europe haven't the wit to take the opportunities offered for influencing decisions their way and for taking advantage of what is on offer because they still think of Europe as them and us and not a union of European countries.   If they had, we might have had better measures in place for ensuring the Greeks and Irish and Italians and the rest were actuially meeting the economic rules for Euro zone membership and maintaining economic discipline once in.

Its obvious you like the EU and living in Belgium, agree our euro MP's should be more involved,  personally I think Nigel Farage  is doing a brilliant job telling the euocrats what hand jugglers they are, ;D

[Nigel B]

See the difference is i provide links to back upo my point of view, you provide........................nothing. Theres no one anywhere agrees with you, wheras theres plenty of educated, intelligent people in the know, from  the ONS, the Telegraph and The Economist who agree with me.

So where do you think I came up with the amount Total is about to spend in the Shetlands after Gas? My allotment?
Here. Suck on this Yokel:   http://www.shetlandtimes.co.uk/2009/02/20/sullom-voe-to-be-hub-for-all-west-of-shetland-gas-under-total-plan

If you are going to debate on the internet, you need to start providing supporting evidence, otherwise your arguments have no merit or substance.  Lets see your evidence, or we can assume ther isnt any, and you POV is a pile of guesswork and hot air. if yo uare going to cal me wrong, yo uare also calling the BBCc, the Telegraph, the Economist, several government think tanks and many other very smart people wrong, includinmg academics and industrialists, and you need some seriously good counter evidence to do that, not just your own personal bluster and waffle.

Now I'm done in this thread.. Thank you. :)


[Edited to add] Thank you Ceres, but faced with the accusation of filling my post with no more then personal bluster and waffle, I think a simple 'Oh shut up!' to be quite acceptable.]

[pumkinlover]

Just a gentle reminder that there is an IGNORE button and that when either or both parties start to argue about the personality or atitude of the other is often a good time to use it.