Topic: New allotments rent and water demand

[Nigel B]

Our council have just announced the rent and water charges for the first year.

£25 per full plot and £20 water charge for water not yet delivered to site. The letter states that "If the amount of water is less than the provisional sum charge plot holders will be given a refund."

My questions:
Can they legally demand the whole year's rent? I thought we had the option to pay quarterly?

Can they charge for something they have as yet failed to deliver? (The water)  £20 seems like rather a large sum for me to stump up 'just in case' it costs that much. (Disabled without benefits)

Any thoughts?

Thanks.

[Unwashed]

Hi Nigel, can you post you tenancy agreement?

[lavenderlux]

If people had the option to pay quarterly for a small yearly rent of £25, I think the Council's admin costs of billing, postage in sending out bills, processing payments (or chasing non payment), recording payments etc would come to more than £25!  £25 per full plot is a good deal

Re water charges - £20 is probably more than the water costs per year will be, but this is an 'unknown' figure and they do offer to refund if the costs are less than this.  We've recently been looking into water costs (as part of considering going self managed) and are horrified at how much we use - initial figures suggest it works out at around £12 per plot per year.  We don't pay a separate water charge, a few years ago our council did want to introduce a £2 per year per plot water charge but there were 'pensioner' campaigns about hitting them hard in the pocket and the separate charge was dropped.
Having seen over the past few weeks just how much some plot holders do water, (yesterday morning one plot holder near me spent over an hour using his hose to water his plot - and he waters most days) its not difficult to see how it can come to around £12 a year for each plot

[Nigel B]

Hello Unwashed,
Thanks for your interest.
I don't have a tenancy agreement yet. You'd have thought it would have been included with the letter. Well, I would have thought so..
For some background..
The allotments were raised by interested members of the public and have been taken over, under protest, by the town council.
There may be one floating about Unwashed. I'll try to get a copy if I can.

[Nigel B]

If people had the option to pay quarterly for a small yearly rent of £25, I think the Council's admin costs of billing, postage in sending out bills, processing payments (or chasing non payment), recording payments etc would come to more than £25!  £25 per full plot is a good deal

I agree, it is a fair deal. But surely, that's what allotments are about aren't they? To provide a means for the less well off to feed themselves and their family, because they are poor?

Re water charges - £20 is probably more than the water costs per year will be, but this is an 'unknown' figure and they do offer to refund if the costs are less than this.  We've recently been looking into water costs (as part of considering going self managed) and are horrified at how much we use - initial figures suggest it works out at around £12 per plot per year.  We don't pay a separate water charge, a few years ago our council did want to introduce a £2 per year per plot water charge but there were 'pensioner' campaigns about hitting them hard in the pocket and the separate charge was dropped.
Having seen over the past few weeks just how much some plot holders do water, (yesterday morning one plot holder near me spent over an hour using his hose to water his plot - and he waters most days) its not difficult to see how it can come to around £12 a year for each plot

You allow hose-pipes????
No wonder your water bill is through the roof. I would have thought it reasonable to not allow hose-pipes, but to allow the gardener as much as he/she can carry in a watering-can?

[Unwashed]

Basically the Council can charge whatever the tenancy agreement lets them charge, subject to a couple of challenges, so it's important to see the tenancy agreement.  If there isn't a written agreement then in general the Council can't change anything, particularly not the rent.

How long have you had your plot, who was your landlord before the council took over the site, and how did the council take it over and become your landlord?  Basically I want to understand whether a new tenancy began under the council's management, or whether the terms from your previous tenancy apply.  Have you ever had a tenancy agreement?  If the council send you anything don't just sign it, you could lose rights that you don't need to lose.

To answer the quarterly rent question:  yes, if you're on an allotment let by a council under the allotments acts 1908-50 and your rent is more than £1.25 then you can't be required to pay more than a quarter in advance.  If the council find that expensive to administer they can always collect rent nine months in arrears.  Whether the allotments are let under the allotments acts is a bit of a question, because not all sites would appear to be so I assume there is some other power under which councils can let allotments, though I don't know what it is.  You might not get a sensible answer, but you'd have to ask your council under what power they let allotments - everything a parish council does must have a statutory power to allow them to do it.

[Fork]

We are a site with 24 plots...we allow hosepipes but not all use them....some water like they are growing rice,others are more frugal....total water bill for the site last year was £122....much much less than my water bill at home!!

[Nigel B]

Thanks again Unwashed, and Fork for your input.

Unwashed. I'll ask at the meeting the council have called in the letter. It says:
"The Town Council are also at their Annual General Meeting setting up an Allotments Subcommittee for the Town Council. You are very welcome to attend the Annual General Meeting on the 19th may 2011 at 8pm.

The Subcommittee will consist of a number of Councillors and 2 plot holder representatives.

Please remember that permission for the erection of any structures is required from the Town Council before installation. If you have any queries please contact me........"

[Unwashed]

From previous responses water is typically works out around £1.00 per pole averaged over a site, though it can vary a bit.  You pay a standing charge per site that depends on the size of the supply pipe.  Bigger sites need a bigger supply if the water pressure isn't to fall to nothing in a dry spell, but it gets quite a bit more expensive once you go above a 1/2 inch supply.

The advantage of being on a well run self-managed site is that there's often someone scrutinising the bills and the meter so leaks become obvious and get fixed before too much water gets wasted.  Shame my council can't manage that.

[Unwashed]

Please remember that permission for the erection of any structures is required from the Town Council before installation. If you have any queries please contact me........"

Typical council rule-mongers.  For one, they can't just make this stuff up on the fly, so if it isn't in the tenancy agreement it isn't true, and two, if it's in the tenancy agreement it's almost certainly unenforceable - it's nonsense to require permission to erect a bean frame or tie pallets together for a compost heap, and it would be utterly unreasonable for the council to refuse permission.

[Nigel B]

So how about this business of charging in advance for a supply not yet provided? Can they really demand that?

[lavenderlux]

Re the requirement for the council's "permission for the erection of any structures" - surely it is sensible for there to be a standard position on all plots for things like sheds, greenhouses and polytunnels (also for there to be a maximum size) so you have a tidy site and they aren't put just anywhere and interfere and become a nuisance (eg shade) to the neighbouring plot holders.  Therefore if you have to ask the council for permission, they can indicate the position. 
Probably not intended to apply to bean frames and compost bins made from pallets, but to keep a site tidy its probably also a good idea to indicate the area for pallet compost bins

[Unwashed]

Re the requirement for the council's "permission for the erection of any structures" - surely it is sensible for there to be a standard position on all plots for things like sheds, greenhouses and polytunnels (also for there to be a maximum size) so you have a tidy site and they aren't put just anywhere and interfere and become a nuisance (eg shade) to the neighbouring plot holders.  Therefore if you have to ask the council for permission, they can indicate the position. 
Probably not intended to apply to bean frames and compost bins made from pallets, but to keep a site tidy its probably also a good idea to indicate the area for pallet compost bins

1. It doesn't matter what the intention of the rule is, what counts is what the words say.  A rule that requires the tenant to apply for permission for a bean frame and gives the landlord the choice of refusing unreasonably is unfair, and therefore unenforceable.
2.  No, it's not sensible to regiment what for two hundred years has been gloriously libertarian, but if it happens that a site is overrun with OCD rule-nazis then the way to draft an enforceable rule is to specify precisely what you can have where - "you can have one shed no bigger than 6'x8' at the back of you plot" kind of thing, because then the allotmenteer doesn't have to go cap-in-hand to ask for permisison to tie two sticks together.

[Unwashed]

So how about this business of charging in advance for a supply not yet provided? Can they really demand that?

It depends on what the tenancy agreement says.  In general charging in advance is fine.  It's usual to pay allotment rent in advance, though interestingly enough if the tenancy agreement doesn't specifically say the common-law default is to pay in arrears.

However, it seems unlikely to me that the tenancy agreement could possibly have a fairly drafted clause allowing the council to charge whatever they want for water.

If you want to challenge it you need to write to the parish clerk to say that the tenancy agreement doesn't allow the council to inrease the rent and doesn't allow the council to apply a seperate charge for water.  You also have to withold the new payment and pay at the previous rate.

Your parish clerk can then do one of these things:

1.  Give you a copy of your signed agreement showing you a perfectly fair and enforceable clauses allowing them to do what they've done.  You pay up and say no more.

2.  Give you a copy of your signed agreement confirming that the ocuncil don't have the right either to increase the rent or charge seperately for water.  You stick to your guns and try and get the clerk to understand you're right.

3.  Get very cross and try and evict you.  If you're right she can't, but it'll be a miserable lonely fight.

Are you in the NSALG?

[Nigel B]

And thanks again Unwashed..
No, not in the NSALG now, although when we were a committee getting the association going, I joined us up for a year as such. Some committee members thought it unnecessary and voted to not continue to pay for it. 

The only real signed document was the Lease Agreement between the council and the association. That was signed, but then surrendered by some committee members. The town clerk now holds that document but won't say what other documents were signed, (any receipt for payment from the Assoc for the first year's rent for example.)

There is no previous rate for the water either, as it still hasn't been delivered to the site. I'm guessing they're guessing about how much it is going to cost.

Although we didn't have a signed agreement at the time last autumn, we decided to plant some overwintering crops (Onions and garlic) before winter. Those went in somewhere around September or October last year I think. We'd already had the land ploughed, fenced, marked out and had a draw for plots while waiting for the council to come up with the final Lease, and the councillors had assured us we'd have the document to sign time and time again, eventually giving in and saying we could go ahead and start before signing.....

[Unwashed]

How long have you personally been on you personal plot Nigel?  Have you paid anyone any rent for it, either to the association or the council?

[Nigel B]

How long have you personally been on you personal plot Nigel?  Have you paid anyone any rent for it, either to the association or the council?

I have personally had possession of the plot since last autumn Unwashed. No money has changed hands between myself and the council, this is the first time we've had the opportunity, but I don't know if the council accepted a cheque from the now-defunct Assoc that was to accompany the lease agreement.

[Unwashed]

Whether or not the association paid rent for the site is not the issue.

What I want to establish is the terms and conditions of the lease you youself have on your plot.

Can you say how you came into possession of the plot without paying rent to anyone?  Did anyone on site pay rent?  Was there an expectation to pay rent at any particular date?  Was there an expectation to pay a specific rent?

It's looking at the moment as though you may well be a tenant at will - that means you can be evicted at will.  It also means the council can offer you a tenancy on whatever terms they like.

Bottom line is that if they're going to charge £25 plus water for a full 10 pole plot that's a pretty sweet deal and even if you had a good case it'd be pointless fighting it.  As it is you probably have no case at all.

My suggestion is to be as constructive as possible and try and negotiate a fair tenancy agreement and rules. 

[Nigel B]

Twenty five quid is still a considerable amount to a disabled gardener without benefits.
I have the quarter-year payment, but they are demanding the twenty-five in advance.

There was an expectation to pay rent as soon a the lease was signed, but the clerk pulled the lease before that happened. Now the council (the clerk) wants the money all at once. No concessions, no part-payments....
Whatever the legal status, that is unfair.

[Unwashed]

I'm sorry but you don't have anything to challenge the rent with.  You can write to your parish councillors and ask to discuss your situation with them and see if they'll propose a discount for pensioners and/or disabled users, but thet's the best you can do on that front.

But if I'm right that the council are letting the allotments under the S.23 power in the 1908 act (and it's possible there is some other power in another act, though what it might be I can't say) then you have a statutory right under S.10 Allotments Act 1950 to pay no more than a quarter's rent in advance - and even though the council seperately itemise the water bill I suggest that rent here includes the bill for the water.  So if you want to pay quarterly then you should write to the town clerk and say that you have a right under the act to pay no more than a quarter in advance and it would be helpful if tenants were offered this option, and that in any case you will be asserting that right.

If the clerk ignores you - and they often do - and you're billed for the whole rent in one go then just pay a quarter of it - and remember to pay the other quarters on time because the council probably won't bill you.  It's possible the clerk will try and evict you for arrears, and while a court won't uphold the eviction (if I'm right, and I might be wrong) it will be quite a bit of hassle to go to court, and the council might yet just kick you off unlawfully and that's even more hassle to fight.

I think that's the best I can say.