Topic: apple trees

[demelzah]

i want to get acouple of apple trees for my allotment, will they grow huge? will they fruit this year? what type is best to get? they are for the kids really

[saddad]

If you get them as Minarettes (rootstock) they will get upto 8' max.. won't fruit for a couple of years (2 or 3)  :)

[Robert_Brenchley]

How much space do you have? There are several rootstocks available, so you can pick a tree that'll grow to the size you want.

[Vinlander]

In the shops you will find several different types of apple flavour, sweetness, acidity not to mention crispness (eg. people without teeth like soft mealy apples).

The differences are even greater when you grow your own and the flavours are more intense.

So you need to decide what type of apple you want, but I personally would avoid the actual variety you buy in the shops but go for a super-version of that type.

I (and others) can recommend something if you can say if you prefer intense/medium/bland, sweet or very sweet, sharp/medium/mild, crisp or soft.

Minarettes are made up from a relatively small group of varieties with sort of middle-of-the-road characteristics (which is fine for most people),  whereas 90% of the full range of characteristics can be grown successfully as cordons (about twice as wide as a minarette).

I have read that Plums really don't do well in restricted forms like cordons - I'd love to hear how plum minarettes do... though I have no intention of trying one.

Cheers

[saddad]

I have a Victoria Minarette... it needs fairly severe Summer pruning as the New growths each year can be up to 6' which on top of an established 7' tree can be quite tricky..  :-X

[demelzah]

i want something sweet and crisp. don't mind some thing that needs lots of pruning as my rabbits love the twigs. i have a 10 rod plot

[Russell]

An apple tree that needs a lot of pruning can easily turn into an apple tree that concentrates on growing and forgets all about fruiting. It is easy to get your tree the right size and shape but to keep it fruiting happily in the process can be tricky.
I'm with Robert Brenchly. Decide how much space you want to devote to apples. Make up your mind whether this is to be a small number of larger trees or a larger number of smaller trees. This will decide your rootstock. Then choose your cultivars.
Note some cultivars are more amenable to pruning than others, they really don't all behave the same when hit with the secateurs.
It goes like this:
Pears - most cultivars will do as they are told and keep on fruiting.
Apples - some cultivars will do as they are told e.g. James Grieve.
          - some cultivars will not do as they are told e.g. Bramley.
Plums, Greengages, Cherries - most cultivars will not do as they are told. Pruning can be counter-productive.

[Vinlander]

i want something sweet and crisp. don't mind some thing that needs lots of pruning as my rabbits love the twigs. i have a 10 rod plot

Possibly the crispest apple of all (without being hard) is Ashmeads Kernel (4) - it has an Award of Garden Merit from the RHS because it is reliable, sweet, delicious and trouble free.

However the sweetness is balanced by slightly more than average acidity - but it is this acidity that keeps it in good condition when it is stored. It gradually subsides as the fruit matures.

It is widely regarded as the best choice for a garden - even better for an allotment because the fruits are sort of grey and quite unattractive.

Claygate Pearmain (3) is similar but without the hint of pear.

If you don't like any sharpness at all then you are moving into the realms of the apples that are only good from the tree - like Discovery which only keeps about 3 weeks. 

In the middle ground are a large number of very popular apples - but unfortunately (not) I have little experience of those.

For a slightly more unusual choice I would recommend Pitmaston Pineapple (3), loved by everybody (especially children) but it is quite a small apple.

A more unusual one would be William Crump (3) - strange name but the very best red apple I've ever tried - lots of expert taste panels agree.

One last point - don't go for Cox's Orange Pippin - it is a nightmare to grow without a complex regime - sprays and all sorts - the RHS gives it almost the opposite of an AGM.

Orleans Reinette (4) is similar but better and a lot easier to grow. 

All my recommendations will pollinate each other, and if there is a crab apple nearby (or lots of other apple trees) - then you don't need to worry about pollination partners at all, but otherwise you'll need to check your pollination groups (n) - eg here: http://www.trees-online.co.uk/pages_33.html.

Cheers.

[Palustris]

Possibly the crispest apple of all (without being hard) is Ashmeads Kernel (4) - it has an Award of Garden Merit from the RHS because it is reliable, sweet, delicious and trouble free.

This is always said, that it is trouble free, yet it is the only tree in our orchard which suffers very badly from Bitter pit. To the extent that I am thinking of grubbing it out.

[Vinlander]

Possibly the crispest apple of all (without being hard) is Ashmeads Kernel (4) - it has an Award of Garden Merit from the RHS because it is reliable, sweet, delicious and trouble free.

This is always said, that it is trouble free, yet it is the only tree in our orchard which suffers very badly from Bitter pit. To the extent that I am thinking of grubbing it out.

When it comes down to it, it's a Gloucestershire apple - not that weird a climate but damper than some - if yours is consistently different then maybe that's an issue.

I have had a touch of bitter pit in a few years - dry years I think. I'm on clay but if you are on sand in a dry part of the country then that might be the problem.

All my apples are 'heritage' varieties and I don't expect them to be foolproof, but some of them get more bitter pit than Ashmead's - including Egremont Russet - (which is pretty close  to a mainstream commercial apple - except of course it's nowhere near bland enough).

Ashmeads is one I'd never give up on.

Since the first year it happened I've always kept Calcium Nitrate to hand - but I've never had two bad years on the trot so I've never bothered to use it.

Have you tried it for your problem? More info here http://www.canr.msu.edu/vanburen/bitpit.htm

Cheers.

[saddad]

I'm on clay and have had bitter pit on my Egremont... but only once in the 15+ years they have been in...  :)

[Vinlander]

I'm on clay and have had bitter pit on my Egremont... but only once in the 15+ years they have been in...  :)

Egremont is a wonderful apple and still far too rare in the shops. It's always fascinated me by having a pear-like russet skin and some pear in the flavour too (and hazelnut). A bit too soft from store though - I try to eat mine from the tree.

Have you tried Ashmead's to compare the bitter pit? - it's certainly no worse (for me), has an entirely different hint of pear, wonderful brisk sweet flavour and the texture is unsurpassed in my experience.

Cheers.

[TISH]

I am thinking of an apple tree on the allotment too and am concerned about size - one of those family trees (Discovery/James Grieve/Sunset from blackmor) that give you several varieties. I am not sure whether to keep in a container (its M26 rootstock and supposed to be ok in a container) or put in one of the root restricting bags they showcased on gardeners world.

Has anyone had success with m26 rootstock in a container, or anyone else tried the root restrictor bags. Confusing as the bags come in many sizes and I have no idea which one I should get.

One more question, if you plant it in the ground what can you plant nearby and how close?

[goodlife]

Huh..I've grown apple trees in containers..but unfortunately it is not an easy option..they will need lot of attention with watering and feeding or you just end up growing tree with various problems and little fruit if any. ::)
Majority of my trees in allotment are crafted on m26 and planted straight into ground...why do need to plant your tree into root restrictor bags? The bags that I'm familiar with are designed to be used under ground and those rigid ones would be fine for nurseries while trees are on for sale but they would not really suit keeping apple for long term. With m26 the roots don't take that much room anyway..
Lot of my trees are under planted with spring bulbs and alpine strawberries..so now it all looks pretty and later on I get berries too ;) As for how close..my plants are literally touching the tree..
You could also plant fruit bush nearby, giving enough clearance for the bush to grow it's full or wanted size..like gooseberry I probably would plant about 4ft away..but not bushes all way round..you have to be able to pick the fruit too ;)

[Uncle_Filthster]

M27 rootstock is the way to go for a small tree.  I've had a scrumptious on an M27 that was sold as a 'patio' container apple tree for 6 or so years now and it's still only about 4' high but the same wide.  I took it out of its container and stuck it down the allotment so the resident scrotes wouldn't rape the tree of fruit in our garden.   It now produces way more apples than we can eat and really lives up to its name with really sweet and crisp apples full of juice.  I think it was 5 carrier bag fulls last year on top of a load of apples that got slugged/wasped and thrown away.  The only drawback is being a discovery/worcester pearmain/golden delicious cross it doesn't store for long.

[Vinlander]

I agree with Goodlife - dwarfing and semi-dwarfing rootstocks don't need or like root restriction.

Even if you are using a very large pot you should go up a size of rootstock when planting - M27 in a pot is pretty useless, even M26 or MM9 in a pot will be smaller than M27 in open ground (until the roots escape).

Cheers.

[jennym]

I am thinking of an apple tree on the allotment too and am concerned about size - one of those family trees (Discovery/James Grieve/Sunset from blackmoor) that give you several varieties. ...

Someone bought me a family tree as a gift, but I'd never recommend them - they tend not to grow evenly, as the different varieties grow at different rates, and it was a real eyesore.

If you do get a couple of different trees, make sure they will flower at around the same time unless there are plenty of other apple trees nearby.

With regard to bitter pit, in my experience it's best to apply the calcium regularly and to make sure your irrigation is correct, dryness will affect the ability of the tree to get at the calcium. Long term deficiency won't just affect the fruit, it'll affect the whole tree.

[Russell]

I also have had experiences with a family tree connected with uneven growth, however I did manage to keep the tree productive for nearly 20 years until it was superseded by a row of cordon apples. I now have experiences connected with uneven growth between adjacent cordons in my row.
My family tree after a few years produced a shoot from it's crown which turned out to be of a variety I had not paid for, as a complete surprise. Just as well because one of the other three varieties was a complete dud and no loss when it died.