Topic: Children on Allotments

[Unwashed]

This came up in the discussion about the Independent Safeguarding Authority and the requirement to be CRB-checked if you work with children and vulnerable adults on the allotment, but it's a common issue.

I suggest that children should not be prevented by the site management from having and working their own plots unsupervised if that is what their parents consider appropriate.

[Squash64]

Would you clarify what age you are talking about please.

[Robert_Brenchley]

Given the brief enthusiasms of a lot of teenagers, I think I'd want to see a parent involved. But that being said, some could undoubtedly manage a plot.

[Trevor_D]

Unwashed, you probably know more about the legal position than I do, but I suspect that this is the crux. At what age can you legally sign the papers to rent an allotment? 14? 16?

I don't see any problems about children actually working an allotment; as an ex-teacher I'm fully aware they are capable of vastly more than we poor adults think possible.  We have an 11-year old who runs a very prosperous plot in conjunction with his father - and as far as we're all concerned it's his plot, not dad's!

But our rules state that it's the actual plot-holder who is responsible for family and guests - and should be on site when they are - so if the child can't sign the papers, they are not the plot-holder.

(I'm not anti-kids. Far from it! They're the future! Just want to get the legal bit sorted....)

[Borlotti]

My granddaugher, 12 and my other grandchildren hate my allotment, and if they are naughty, I will take you to the allotment.  Apparently the rate for an barrow full of soil is not the 50p I thought they should be grateful for but just a lot of moans.  Spoilt brats, but don't tell Mum or Dad. 

[Le-y]

My son's great with the allotment, he helps me to clear the weeds, picks out stones and digs, he makes my job so much easier...............but he's only 18 months  ;D ;D ;D ;D

[manicscousers]

our 11 yr old grandson has taken over 2 small beds this year, he's already planted up 3 different types of onion, garlic, sowed and planted out overwinter peas(in our poly), took over one of our vines and a trough of strawberries, planted up one of my leaf bags with potatoes, he is always supervised on site  :)

[Digeroo]

I think that it is dreadful that people are no longer allowed to have contact with children.  Instead of keeping the dangerous people under suitable supervision, somehow everyone has become guilty.  We seem to be supervising the innocent majority.

There are lots of children around our allotments its great.

[Unwashed]

Squash, I don't have an age in mind, other than children being under 18.  The point is that it's a matter for their parents to decide whether they're responsible enough.  I know 30 year olds who couldn't cope with the responsibility, and 11 year olds who would thrive on the independence.

Trevor, the thing with a contract is that you can't enforce it against an under-18, so there is a legal difficulty, though it could be overcome by renting to the parent, and rules and procedures would need to accomodate children being plot-holders in their own right.

And no, I don't suppose many kids would want to be allotmenteers, but I think it's very wrong to make rules to prohibit it.

[Geoff H]

As an ex teacher I think you might be surprised at how many kids are keen on growing things - At one time I ran an allotment club, until some adults in a van nicked all the kid's and my produce.
I was gardening seriously by the age of 11 and I know one kid of 12 in our town who was after an allotment.
A parent would have to sign for it and be ultimately be responsible but i think it is harsh to insist on the parent being there, and I think going overboard on the matter.
The kid might want to do some gardening after school while parents are still at work and why not? You are not supervising them, you are not having close contact with them. It is no different than if you see a child in a public place like a park. Now if you are supervising kids on a plot, mentoring them on a regular basis or teaching them then that is a different matter.
The only problem I think we have with kids is making parents responsible for their behaviour ie. bringing little kids down and letting them run all over the place. Most wont do that but there can always be one!

[BAK]

I disagree with Unwashed. Unsupervised children pose a site-wide issue. The child may be the only person on the site at a given time and there may well be safety issues to consider as well as the occasional ill-behaved child.

I consider that the site management or council should have defined rules in place with respect to the ages of unsupervised children that are allowed. There should however ideally be a clause which allows them, at their discretion, to override the rule to cater for any child that they consider can be treated as any other adult.

[Squash64]

I suggest that children should not be prevented by the site management from having and working their own plots unsupervised if that is what their parents consider appropriate.

I think you are assuming that all parents are sensible and realistic about what their children should and should not be allowed to do.

[Unwashed]

I think you are assuming that all parents are sensible and realistic about what their children should and should not be allowed to do.

I am uncomfortable with the idea that I (or for that matter anyone else) am batter qualified than the parent to make that decision.

Unsupervised children pose a site-wide issue. The child may be the only person on the site at a given time and there may well be safety issues to consider as well as the occasional ill-behaved child.

Specifically, what safety issues can there be that need no mitigation for the general public but yet are significant enough to prohibit unsupervised children altogether?  Do you suppose an allotment site is any less safe than a shopping centre, or a main road, or a piece of waste ground, or a school playground?  Is it possible that 'safety issues' are used as an excuse for excluding children?

It's not a matter of ill-behaved children, the issue is ill-behaved people, and I would expect a site already to have a rule to deal with that eventuality.

[Squash64]

I am uncomfortable with the idea that I (or for that matter anyone else) am batter qualified than the parent to make that decision.

Sorry, but I disagree with this.  Being a parent does not automatically give someone common sense.  A young boy of about 6 was running around his dad's plot, holding a bamboo cane, pretending it was a sword.  The dad couldn't see any danger in this.  What should I have done? Waited until the boy tripped over and impaled himself on the cane?

I don't want to exclude children from allotment sites, far from it.  But I believe that they do need supervision.

[Chrispy]

A parent is responsible for their child's safety and well being.
If an allotment society gives permission for a child to be on site unsupervised, then it could be argued that the society has taken over that role when they are on site, in the same way a school is responsible for the children's safety when they are on school grounds.

I don't think that is something a society would want to take on.

Also, the site should have third party insurance, if you allowed unsupervised children how would that affect the insurance?

[landimad]

If they( the parents) took control of the underlings, This would help in there understanding of the place they are in.
I had an allotment down Plymouth, and my two eldest of which one is keen to have a go and the other is not. They were always supervised on the plot.
When we moved to Bedford the other two came along and this meant we needed a lottie.
They have again been supervised not only to see how things were done, but also to see what was safe and what was not.
In my time as a responsible parent on the lottie, I have ensured that the children were allowed a certain amount of leeway.
They have been a good source of future gardeners, and the son has now sourced a plot in Cambridge for the students. He hopes to include this in his studies involving the creatures who frequent the lottie and those which are resident also.
He also wants to understand why there are plants which are loved by pests and those who prefer the native flora.
To get back to the point in question, I feel it is up to the parent which needs to control access on the lottie. If the child rebels then the parent should be warned of this. If they persist then a warning by letter should be issued. If this fails then the final notice of termination should be written out ands the plot holder have their allotment tenure suspended.
I know that times have changed but surely we can use the law and common sense to get through any problem that may arise.

[Jeanbean]

I don't think that chidren should be allowed to wander around an allotment site without there being a responsible adult present. I know that on many sites there could be all sorts of dangers for them. Tenants without sheds tend to leave all sorts lying around. Not only tools that could be dangerous if used incorrectly but also various items such as insecticdes, jeyes fluid and weed killers, not always in the correct containers. Children are well known for being inquisitive- a good thing- but not on a site that is aimed in the main for adults. Some of whom have no children and maybe might not be as careful as parents with potentionally dangerous items, after all why should they.  Children as part of a family group tending a plot is to be encouraged but children on their own to be discouraged. That is my feelings on the subject, others think differently and I respect their feelings and hope that there are no incidents occurring that could ahve been avoided, Children are very precious but left on their own without guidance, can be a very nasty accident waiting to happen.
I often take my 3 year old grandson over to my plots but never leave him to wander. Once he get fidgety then home we go. Sometimes I could do wihth longer on the site but his well being comes first.

[Unwashed]

Squash, I wouldn't expect many six-yearolds to be responsible enough to work an allotment on their own, but at 17, or 16, or 14, or 12?  Is it healthy that we should institutionally exclude people because of their age?  Doesn't this disenfranchise the youth and cause anti-social behaviour?  Would it be any more acceptable to ban unaccompanied over-sixtyfives?

Conthehill, before you think about insurance you need to understand your liabilities.  The site management owe a duty of care to anyone on site, whether they're there legitimately or not (Occupier's Liability Act 1984), so the site management always need to manage the risk to children because even if the site bans unaccompanied children, it's reasonably forseeable that children will come on site unaccompanied, even if they do it by breaking in.  If your insurance only covers loss and damage to adults that does nothing to limit your liability to children, so if you chose to take out public liability insurance you probably want to make sure it covers children whether they're allowed on site unsupervised or not.  Remember though, the site management's responsibility is only for common areas and unlet plot, whatever happens on an allotmenteer's plot is her lookout.

As for arguing that an allotment authority has responsibility for children on site in the same was as a school does, well you can make the argument, but it has no merit.

On a Council allotment I would challenge the Council's power to make a rule banning unaccompanied children because it is not obvious that the Allotments Acts allow it.

[Squash64]

Squash, I wouldn't expect many six-yearolds to be responsible enough to work an allotment on their own, but at 17, or 16, or 14, or 12? 

I agree, but when I asked you what age you meant, you said

"Squash, I don't have an age in mind, other than children being under 18."

[shirlton]

On our site. We have a notice that children should be accompanied by an adult at all times. I like it that way. Our plots are beside the nature area where there is a pool to attract wildlife. The area of the pool itself is fenced off and there is a large notice warning people of the danger of children going in there alone. If this were not so then I wouldn't get any gardening done at all because I would be watching to make sure that they didn't go in there.
We have my daughter and her 3 youngest chidren who come to the plot regularly through out the summertime and have done so since they were small. They know exactly how far from our plots that they are allowed to go and no further.I think that this is a sensible rule as we can stay in sight with each other. They have been taught that they must never go on anyone elses plot. As is the rule for grown ups too.