Topic: Autumn/Spring. When is best to dig a new plot?

[Moggle]

After the success of my balcony garden this year, I am seriously considering getting an allotment.

I have phoned up a couple of sites and there is a 5 pole plot available about 5 minutes drive from my work, which I think would make it easy to fit in to my regular schedule.

I am wondering if I should be going full bore now, and starting to clear the plot, which has not been cultivated for 3 or 4 years, but is covered with plastic at the moment. But I read something about nutrients leaching out over the winter, so should I wait until the spring to dig?

Or should I clear, then green manure? It's all so confusing!

[john_miller]

Plant nutrients are held in the soil as 'salts'. These salts have an electrical charge that binds them onto soil particles, which also carry electrical charges. Most of these salts are positively charged (cations) and are held onto the soil particles, whose charge are mostly negative, awaiting absorption into the moisture in the soil where they will become available to plants. The major component of plant tissue is Nitrogen. Plants take up most of their N as nitrate (90%, compared to about 10% taken up as the ammonia form). Nitrate is an anion (negatively charged) so it is repelled by the majority of the holding sites on soil that are available to other salts. Nitrates are also highly water soluble so that when it rains to excess  any N is readily absorbed by the rain and carried down through the soil profile, ultimately to groundwater where it is unavailable to plants.
Digging now will make very little difference to leaching- most other nutrients will be locked up and any N that was in the soil will already be gone (although digging will increase oxidation of any ammonia in the soil, but this will be marginal). Leaching of nutrients at this time of year is only significant when manure or compost is added as there will be more nitrate N in it. Dig in small pieces and sow green manure as you go?
Clarification or obfuscation?

[derbex]

Aside from the leaching, how much work have you got to do and what sort of soil do you have?

If you want to use all the plot next year and have limited time, then I'd get started now. Especially if there's a lot to clear and dig over. I only managed to dig half of my half-sized plot this year.

For heavy, clay soils there seems to be a recommendation to dig in the autumn and leave the clods over the winter for the frost to break down -but stay off them if they're wet and maybe use a board to stand on. That said I did mine in the spring and the plants grew anyway  ;)

Jeremy

[mitzzy]

I got my weed filled allotment In August and I have been diggin it ever since .I had hoped to have dug it all over but I am still at it !

This weekend is going to be busy putting up fence and stuff


Mags

[Moggle]

John, are there any green manures that would germinate in early-mid november? Cause I am going away this weekend and I can't see myself getting it all organised before the end of the month.

Derbex, I haven't even seen the place yet  ::) just made a phone call or 2, and wondering if I should get organised now or wait until late winter or early spring. I have no idea what the soil is like. From yours and mitzzy's comments, sounds like I should get digging asap, and not worry about nutrient leaching.

I am thinking about doing a bed system, so once it is dug, I won't be walking on it at all.

I guess I will try to go and see the plot next weekend. (Why am I going camping in October anyway???)

[john_miller]

I have sown winter rye (not sure what that is in the U.K.) up until mid-November. It does germinate but won't grow much (in my climate) until spring. By leaving rye until May it can get to be 2m high so you have planty of time to let it grow if you are planning on some tender crops next year.
I just went googled to see if I could find out the U.K. term for winter rye (which seems to be the same) and found this too:
"Rye is the most winter-hardy cereal crop and the first to break dormancy in the spring. Rye is easy to establish and is characterized as being the best cereal for absorbing unused soil nitrogen." ( http://ohioline.osu.edu/agf-fact/0026.html)
Rye also produces a mass of dense, fibrous roots which can break up heavy soil very effectively. This action can substitute for the frost action typically recommended for heavy soils.

[windygale]

hi,i've just taken on a new plot myself and was advised to double dig over my plot in Autumn, dig in as much manure or organic compost, etc as possible in or over one thred of my plot, cleaning out weeds, & roots,and clear any other rubbish.
Devide my plot into 3, double dig & add manure to 1 therd, top mulch the other 2 therds in spring,
rotate my crops(
P1 Potatoes, Beans & Peas, etc, allway planting into freshly manured ground
P2 Carrots & Parsnips,Onions,Lettuce,etc
P3 Cabbage,Swedes, Sprouts,Broccoli,etc needs hungry and hard ground to grow well)
every year, adding B/F&B to the soil in spring before the mulch and when planting my crops will hopefully stop leeching of nutrients then this will cut down my work and allow me more time to enjoy my allotment,
Hope this helps
windy

[Sarah-b]

Windy - are you sure about sowing carrots/parsnips into freshly manured ground? All the advice given to me has been specifically not to do that. I think they "fork up" if you do.
We're planning on only double digging the brassica bed. Other beds will be single dug and some will be green manured and some horse dung. But for carrots and parsnips, am saving a bed that was manured last year. Hope I've got the plan right.

sb

[Moggle]

Brilliant, thanks John for all of that. Got my organic catalouge now and they also list field beans for sowing up until Nov.

Thanks everyone else for your help too.

Now I just need to have a look at the plot and go from there.

[derbex]

Moggle,

the sort of rye recommended for green manuring here is 'Hungarian Grazing Rye'. You will probably be ok to sow it now, I did mine a few weeks ago. I find that things, especially slugs, treat it as a tasty snack; the first time I used it they scoffed the lot, this time is better but still patchy.

I have grown fiels beans the past few years, they're fine but not weed suppressing, you need a mulch between the rows. This year I'm going to try winter broad beans instead and see if I can get a crop as well as a soil improver.

Jeremy

[Multiveg]

You could also grow some broad beans (which hopefully will be ready for picking a couple of weeks earlier than spring sowing) - aquadulce, the sutton (excellent for exposed sites as it is a dwarf one), and others....

[windygale]

Hi Sarah-b, you spotted my mistake,after posting & reading more that same night i found that i was wrong Carrots & Parsnips should be planted on Two year old ground and not on fresh ly manured ground,Beans & Peas should be on freshly manured ground.
I think by looking in differance books and mag the info that are given differs from books to books.
Sorry every one
Catch you Later
windy

[Moggle]

Multi, broad beans sound good, but when would be too late to sow them? Should I sow them indoors as soon as I can and then transplant? Or even sow them in pots on my sheltered balcony somewhere where they will get some sun?

Thanks for the note about the field beans Derbex. As usual I will let these thoughts fester in my brain for a few days/weeks and see what I can filter out from it later.

[derbex]

Moggle, I'm going to start my beans off in the greenhouse as soon as I can, or even in cells outside. I'd sow directly but I haven't cleared the space yet. Maybe on your balcony? It might save some hardening off.

BTW I'm sure I've sowed both field beans & rye into November, but then I'm in sunny Essex.

Jeremy

[john_miller]

If you grow broad beans but take a crop off them instead of turning them in then they simply become another crop, not a green manure. While the plants will fix N in their roots, which will become available to later crops, they will still remove significant quantities of other nutrients, particularly K. Additionally, unlike rye, the root system of beans are not well branched so they will not condition the soil well. Further, if you allow beans to mature their stems will be quite woody (lignified- the N will have changed to carbon compounds as the the nitrogen transfers in to the seeds) and will temporarily rob the soil of N as microflora/fauna uses it to break down the carbon based tissue.

[derbex]

That told me -thanks John. Thinking about it I suppose a lot of the nutrients go into the seeds -and that's the bit you eat.

I have dug field beans in the past -but I've also composted them and put the result on the bed, which would be a better way to go with woody stems. With the grazing rye, as it's actually got away this year, I was hoping to cover it to kill it off and then plant through it, probably sweetcorn.

Another one you could try this year, Moggle, if you're quick, is phacellia, a pretty ferney plant that will stand overwinter here. Has nice blue/mauve flowers in the spring -but if you let it get to that stage you'll need to compost it.

All ayailable from the organic gardern catalogue -probably Kings/Suffolk herbs too.

Jeremy

[john_miller]

Sorry Jeremy if I 'told' you. That was my second attempt to post a comment here after the first one was 'timed out' (whatever that is) and I was feeling frustrated. I always hope I don't come across as didactic but on this occassion I think I may have done. Apologies.

[Moggle]

Right, cancel the broad beans then and I'm back to field beans or rye.

Derbex, I'm in sunny Oxfordshire, so shouldn't be too different to Essex I would think. It looks like I might be safe to sow those in Nov too.

[Sarah-b]

I've got some grazing rye seeds and was planning on trying to get it sown where I am going to do beans next year. But how does it actually work - for instance, if I sow it where I plan to put brassicas (like brussels) next year, won't I end up with a lumpy mess in March instead of nice firm ground to plant into? What I mean is - can you sow grazing rye before any crop, or should you restrict it to preparing for particular crops?

confused,
sb

[derbex]

No apology necessary John, I meant the thanks, as I said I needed telling :)

Cheers,

Jeremy