Topic: Help-Filter advice

[Andy H]

Once before when we had to stop the pump going into the filter and we also cleaned the filter and when restarted we lost 6 big koi.

Tonight whilst removing UV bulbs I snapped the pipe. This means that the pump is pumping straight back into pond without going through the filters.

We don`t want to lose more fish and can hopefully get the part tomorrow to allow water to go through the filter again.

Is it OK to just start it up again or should we clean filter?

What killed the fish last time? Bacteria in filter dying? cleaning the filter too much?

Hope someone can advise.

[Ishard]

Dont clean the filters, the bacteria will encyst whilst the conditions are not favourable and become active when they are. If you are really worried add an air line to the filter medium.

When the filters go back online DONT feed the fish for at least 2 weeks or you will poison the pond  ie ammonia spike, and kill the fish.

Most filters take two years to really work well and the bacteria to build up well and after that the bacteria are usually fairly bomb proof.

Andy try this link. http://www.koiquest.co.uk/

I know Duncan hes a good friend, as are most of the mods etc, and I used to write articles for this site and it has everything you need to know about koi. But beware reading that site will turn you into a serious koi keeper!!!

[Andy H]

2 WEEKS!!!

The filters were off for 12hrs but pond areated by pump. This morning I put hose in filter to add air and keep some slow movement. I couldnt get the bit for the UV so bought a new one which I am about to go and put on.

[Andy H]

Got a bit lost on that other site so maybe you can help a bit more on here.

The pond

Flows into settlement tank where the pump is....

and upto the UV and power supply in this box.....



Then upto the filter which gravity feeds back into the pond


The first compartment is empty the brushes in the 2nd and chinese matting as they called it in the 3rd and nothing in the 4th although it did have curly plastic and 3 layers of foam originally.

[Andy H]

The Nitrate appears to be about 80ppm
the Nitrite about .25ppm and the ammonia 0-.25ppm

[Ishard]

Andy each one of your levels is ‘off’ for koi and by the nitrate (NO3) reading you have previously had an ammonia (NH3/4) spike, which is deadly for koi.

I cannot see your PH level so could you tell me what it is please?


The readings below are perfect for koi;

Ammonia (NH3/4)– Acceptable level = 0
Nitrite N02 – Acceptable level = 0
Nitrate No3– less then 60 ppm (closer to 0 is best)
PH – 7.4 – 8.4

The Nitrogen cycle works like this;
Ammonia is converted into Nitrite then into nitrate. That’s in its simplest terms.

High ammonia and nitrite are lethal for koi. The higher the ph the less ammonia is needed to kill the koi, high nitrite creates a condition called methemoglobin (brown blood disease) and the koi blood cannot carry oxygen (02).

Ammonia is produced by the koi breathing, urinating, defecating and also by detritus in the filters and on the pond bottom (quantities produced in that order). Whilst we cannot stop koi breathing etc we can stop them defecating by not feeding, hence I suggested not feeding the koi for 2 weeks. The time frame can be less if the water parameters stay perfect.

Right now for your pond I would advocate small water changes 5% twice per week (using dechlor) until the parameters are perfect.

When the water parameters are not perfect then koi get stressed and stressed koi activate inherent diseases, get ill and die.

Over stocking a pond causes major ongoing problems, each inch of koi requires 200 imperial gallons of water so if your pond is over stocked you will continue to see problems until by natural selection the right stocking level is achieved.
You can however circumvent that a little by having HUGE filters.

Perhaps you could replace the curly plastic and foam as these ‘polish’ the water and remove the fines.

I hope this helps.

Ish

[Andy H]

Thanks for that in depth reply,

you said that each inch of koi requires 200 imperial gallons of water
I dont understand??? That indicates one big fish in a 2000 gallon pond??

I will see if I can get Dechlor tomorrow and the plastic and foam...

wife will do PH test in a min.

[Andy H]

PH is 6.8-7.0 on the charts.....

[hippydave]

the curly plastic bits are flocore and provide a greater surface area  for benifical bacteria to colonise and help beake down toxins in the water, personaly i prefer alfagrog. Alfagrog is a Volcanic rock  it is very inert and soon colonises with beneficial bacteria ...

Alphagrog is made of a highly porous material that contains many thousands of tiny pockets in which bacteria can thrive making in an ideal material for biological filters.

[Andy H]

Wonder if I could use emptied and washed tasimo coffee plastic bits???

[Ishard]

Dave I actually dont like alphagrog very much as you cant effectively clean it when it clogs. I do prefer flocore.

A friend called Dr Roddy Conrad once made a waterfall of volcanic rock in about 2001 to add extra bio but the water was effectivley 'clean' by the time it got to the waterfall so no 'dirt'.

Andy your ph is good, please dont let it drop further than 7.

You can use anything inert as a filter medium, I know someone who used plastic knives and forks and it worked well.
If you are serious about using those plastic tassimo cups then I would add a strong ailine to the filter to keep them in suspension, that way they wont compact. If you are lucky (and with loads of O2) you may also get both anaerobic and aerobic bacteria colonising them too.

Yes Andy a perfect pond stocking level is 1 inch of koi per 200 imperial gallons, it shows how most of us are way, way overstocked. You measure the body of the koi only btw.

Those dealers you see stocking much much higher tend to have HUMUNGOUS filters you cant generally see and they do more than the standard 10% water changes per week that we should all be doing.
I do change 10% per week, summer and winter.

You know when you are overstocked for your filters because the koi go from one health problem to another, ulcers, fin rot, ich, etc and also your water perameters are never stabel.

I have 12 large koi in a 5000 imperial gallon pond, plus filters that hold 500 imperial gallons and Im overstocked.
I also have what used to be known as trickle filters after my main filters for extra bio filtration.

Jackie

[Andy H]

I believe the Tassimo discs float anyway so the water falling into the last compartment should keep them moving.

They do have a rim of silver foil round them but I would imagine the slow dissintigration of these wouldn`t make much of a problem(?)

I would also do a rinse in the washing machine with just water to give another rinse.

What pressure filters do you use? The sand ones? or centrifugal?

[Ishard]

Ah the water dropping into the filter chamber should do well to keep the Tassimo cups moving.
Perhaps you could scrape away the foil with a knife edge as any metals in the pond arent good for the fish.

I see you are adding extra biological filtration, not mechanical filtration.

 Bio will keep the water perams more stable but will not get rid of cloudy water or water that contains 'fines'. For that you will need some form of sponge or matting.

The pressure filters are centrifugal but its dark now and I cant remember which make they are so i will look tomorrow for you if you wish.  :)

Cheers
Jackie

[Andy H]

OK Jackie I am now heading towards the plastic coils and not being so tight or environmental friendly as I was using as an excuse for our tassimo waste!

I assume the "fines" are a fine sediment?

I will try to get the round shaped foam above the coils, what above the white fine fibre stuff as the "4th" finest level? It is like a sheet of cotton wool?

What do you think about tights round the intake from the pond to filter out some stuff into the settlement chamber?

I once tried a "milk" filter from the farm but it was so fine that hardly any water got through!!! ;D

[Ishard]

Yes 'fines' are water suspended dirt, these make the water cloudy.

Seeing which grade of foam works best for you and your pond will really be a trial and error sort of thing untill the water is clean.
Too fine and it will clog within 24 hours if the water is really dirty so you may need to use several different grades as the water gets cleaner and cleaner.

It may be an idea to try to clean the water cheaply first by using a pair of tights and cotton wool.
Tie one leg of the pair of tights to the out pipe and add some cotton wool at the toe. Dont stuff it full of coton wool just add a handfull  because it will clog quickly and I want the water to overflow the cotton wool back into the pond if it gets clogged when you are out.
Check and clean this everyday (or maybe at first several times per day)

Once the water is clean then decide which grade of matting you prefer to use.

PS If the water is really full of dirt then you can use a fine weave net curtain as this will remove the larger 'fines first then go on to use cotton wool.

 As I cant see your water its difficult to actually judge which to use first so Im probably giving you too much info at once, if I am Im sorry.

Jackie
PPS You can use the plastic scrubbers from wilkinsons as a filter medium instead of paying out for flocore, they work very well and have lots of surface area

[Ishard]

Andy the filters are fishmate 1500's, the ponds they are on are 500 gallons, so you see I like mega filtration with any pond.  ;)

http://www.fishmate-shop.co.uk/

Mine are the second ones down on the page, the poweclenz.

[Andy H]

Have tried tights before but never with cotton wool in them, do you mean a whole leg.

Didn`t get to fish shop as Got BAD toothache and going up hospital in a min but I will get there.

[Ishard]

No its just the toe of the tights.

OUCH!! Poor you. I hope the nurses give you strong enough analgesics to allow you to sleep.  :(

[Andy H]

Walk in centre no good, have to ring a number and book then they rung back as we gave up. So much for emergency treatment, back to the oralgel!!! :(

Will go and put the tights on the filter now....

[Andy H]

Hi Jackie

The tights clogged pretty quick but the above link was very interesting.
Although I couldn`t find pumps etc that you have.

I did read quite a bit on filters.

Years ago after lesson one! I always felt that I should double everything recommended but it seems that even that was not enough.

I visited a guy up north once to see his pond and it was amazing.
He sent me the plans of his pond and filters etc. This was years ago before the internet, 25 years ago in fact, in the days of prestel and ringing peoples home computers direct(huge phone bill) and typing directly to a few people at a time.

Even sent mother and father in law a telex via prestel via imnarsat to the QE2(£5) captain was impressed!

Interested in the pressure filters you have though.

Once considered a sand filter like a swimming pool but was told that these really just polished the final result.
I was thinking that it worked as the ultimate filtration in that it got everything out of the water and the water was perfect, I am starting to think that my way of thinking is totally wrong in this respect...

God this is complicated! Only want a clear pond and some fish for gods sake :o

On the subject of food(koi sticks) how much should you feed per inch of fish???

Have I got to go count the fish and guess their size and add it all up?

Does sweetcorn(organically home grown!!!) and bread screw things up a lot???

Andy (PS:I really appreciate your help on all this)