:D Hi Plocket and Spurdie, yes Spurdie we must buy the same mag, AG? they were okay but like you can't get the others to do it, I'm going to have a go at layering, I have tried it before but again no luck. I think I'm going to have to dig a hole and fill it with compost before I layer the stem down, its probably the clay soil, won't let the roots go down. maybe if I do it now by next spring it might work. Nothing to lose, so I'll go for it. Thanks folks.