Topic: WHAT KIND OF SOCIETY ARE WE?

[betula]

When we lock up our OAP,S for non payment of council tax.
I read in the paper yesterday of a man called Richard Fitzmaurice,76 years old
who was sent to prison for 34 days.He had spent 22 years in the Royal Army  Ordinance Corps.He was led away in handcuffs.
I think anyone over the age of 65 should not have to pay council tax at all.
What a disgusting and shoddy thing to do :'( and we are allowing this to happen.I am going to email my M.P now and I hope other people do likewise.

[Old bird]

Betula

Who then will pay for the Council Tax that these people don't pay?

This guy can afford to pay the Council Tax but he is making a protest.  There are many many wealthy OAP's.  The poorer ones don't pay Council Tax they get a credit.  So it is a means tested thing.  Why should the likes of me and others who work pay for these people's council tax when they (mostly) can well afford to pay their own?

They get the same services as we do - bins emptied, street lighting, cleaning, police etc.  Would you think that everything for pensioners should be free?!!

I think if you think it through - whilst this guy is making his protest - he did it also a couple of years ago - and was imprisoned then.  If he wasn't able to pay I would be shouting out for him but no he is making some misguided protest - to the detriment of his poor long suffering family also.   He ought to pay up!

Old Bird

[betula]

I do not think council tax should be means tested.Many elderly people have small pensions that knock them off the benefit radar ,but only just and for these people life can be a real struggle.I feel that any sophisticated society should care for ALL of its elderly people regardless of income.Child Benefit is non means tested and for good reasons.After a life time of work and tax payment I think elderly people should be entitled to all council services free of charge.So yes,I have thought it through.It is a matter of the state taking care of all vulnerable people. :)

[Old bird]

Thanks for the comprehensive reply Betula - but again my question is WHO should pay for these services then? 

Old Bird

[betula]

We should.Ie all working taxpayers. :)

[Old bird]

And when there are more old aged pensioners than workers - as is beginning to happen Betula - what then? 

The workers will then not be able to afford to pay their vastly inflated Council Tax Bills because they are taxed so heavily to pay for the huge number of Old Aged Pensioners of whom many will be wealthy and well able to afford to pay for luxuries and who may own many houses for which we, the tax payer, will be paying the council tax bill.

I feel if they can afford to (I would not be happy subsidising a millionaire or two) they ought to pay.  This guy is not short of money - he is making a protest.  He is getting publicity for his cause.

Sorry Betula - I think we will have to agree to disagree!!

Old Bird

[Kea]

http://www.statistics.gov.uk/populationestimates/svg_pyramid/default.htm

Take a look at this link......notice the big bulge in the middle? That's the group that's going to great problems (and I'm in there!). There are a lot of us and if we don't pay our council tax when we are elderly there will not be enough taxpayers to do it they'll be hard pushed paying for our pensions.

[springbok]

Going to put my foot in it here... !!.. But if somebody refuses to pay, they should be punished as its the rest of us that foot the bill in the long run.

This country is turning into a PC country!!.. All these new regulations just not to upset folk!!. 

However, my mom works in a doctors surgery.. you want to see the scams that goes on amongst foreigners for healthcare... that makes my blood boil even more!!.  NHS pays millions for translators etc.  In the states to become part of it you have to learn English!!!!!!  Who is footing the bill for that, the taxpayer!!!.

This country is going downhill fast, and nobody votes anymore as they think the government wouldnt change anything anyway. 

Our society on a whole in this country has gone to the dogs!!.. Doesnt matter what age you are, its heading for trouble. 

[Kea]

Yes this is an English speaking country and everyone knows that before they come here if they are not prepared to learn the language (at their own expense and before or as soon as they arrive.....unless they have skills that are in short supply then I don't mind them getting some financial help learning English) then they shouldn't bother coming. The children become a burden on our children when they arrive in the classroom and can't speak the language and teacher's struggle to cope. Paying for translators uses money that could be spent better elsewhere.

[Jeannine]

 I think this post was started with very good reasons but there is another side to this story.

I am only 66 and if I made a gesture to not pay for the reasons this gentleman is doing I would be mortally offended and very indignant if someone said Oh let her off cos she is old. It would appear to me he is well aware of what he is doing and he should be allowed to be treated the same as other folks, to treat him differently is demeaning to him, at least that is the way I would look at it.

I don't expect anyone to treat me any different because I am old whatever the reason, first and foremost I am a person who chooses to pay, or not pay if I so decide.

I choose not to retire ,and shall do so till I change my mind,I  can compete despite my age so  I am allowed to work, I would like to think if I chose to break the law I should be allowed to do just that  and I would expect to pay the consequences, I would be furious if my protest was squashed because of my years, I would feel I was being  patronised  which would negate my protest and more important my feelings.

This age thing is a two way street, I want the freedom to choose, rightly or wrongly, don't take that away from me.

With respect,

XX Jeannine

[morton]

I don't expect anyone to treat me any different because I am old .[/quote]

Jeannine you have many many hundreds of dear friends on this forum and there will not be one who would describe you as old. xx

[Hyacinth]

...but Jeannine IS old LOL......unless peeps' life expectancy is around  132 - then she could be classed as middle-aged :P

btw....I agree with you, old 'un ;D

[kt.]

I agree with old bird. If we all did not pay for things we disagreed with then hardly anything would get paid.

Personal opinion, I would see benefit cheats & loads of other categories sent down too. Nil exemptions. I would also like to see people collecting dole money, unemployed, & immigrants etc, who are able and who take from the state , having to do community service for for what they receive.  Community service doing litter picking,graffiti cleaning, community gardening,  to name a few, would all reduce the overall burden placed on council tax.

There are many people who do good willing volunteer work for free from the goodness of their heart & you do not hear them whinging. They are willingly doing something for nothing, not wanting & expecting something for nothing.

Pull out from the EU, human rights & all that rubbish and push things a bit more hardline - Take it or leave it. No sob stories & no excuses.  (Phew! Rant over.)

[SMP1704]

A few questions - how do we know this man is wealthy? and what is the definition of wealthy these days?

As I understand these protests, it is individuals taking a stand against the ever increasing tax without the corresponding increase or maintenance of service - often the reserve happens and services are downgraded and this generally affects retired people first, e.g. day services, lunch clubs etc. but ultimately it affects all of us.

Pensioners by definition have a fixed income that does not increase year on year in the way that we might expect our salaries to increase (but at the mo not enough to keep up with increases in everything - or it that just me?) 

My understanding is that their protest is along the lines of 'we manage our budgets - why can't you (to the council)

This man is standing up for his beliefs and if that means going to prison, then so be it - sometimes that is the only way to bring about a change.

I don't think there is much chance of success - but it is his stand.

[valmarg]

What kind of society are we living in?  One where the lunatics have taken over the asylum.

Although bigamy is illegal in the UK, it has been decided that it is right to pay benefits to men with more than one wife, for each wife.

Immigrant workers from Eastern European bloc countries, are able to claim benefit for children not resident in the UK.

I have a State pension on £3.28 per week, and a private pension of roughly £1,250 per year.  Our council tax bill is more than that combined per annum.

My husband was compulsorily made redundant aged 56, a matter of months before he would have been eligible for the company's early retirement scheme.  There being no State benefits available, he had to start drawing his company pension early.  His company pension is less per annum than I was earning 20 years ago.

We pensioners are not all scroungers.  We have worked all our lives and paid our National Insurance and Income Tax contributions.

The reason we are not entitled to any of Gordon Brown's means tested benefits is that we have a small amount of savings (which in my opinion is a very small amount), which we are having to use to pay Council Tax, heating, etc bills.

If we had been profligate and not saved any money we would be up to our oxters in state benefits.

All right the chap is making a gesture (futile as it may be).  At least he'll be getting free board and lodging and three meals a day for the next 34 days.  Seems like a good scam to me.  I think I might give it serious consideration!!

That said, I'm amazed they could find a cell for him, when they are letting criminals who have committed very serious offences out early.  Obviously to make room for all us disgruntled council tax paying pensioners!!

valmarg

[SamLouise]

I agree with old bird. If we all did not pay for things we disagreed with then hardly anything would get paid.

Personal opinion, I would see benefit cheats & loads of other categories sent down too. Nil exemptions. I would also like to see people collecting dole money, unemployed, & immigrants etc, who are able and who take from the state , having to do community service for for what they receive.  Community service doing litter picking,graffiti cleaning, community gardening,  to name a few, would all reduce the overall burden placed on council tax.

There are many people who do good willing volunteer work for free from the goodness of their heart & you do not hear them whinging. They are willingly doing something for nothing, not wanting & expecting something for nothing.

Pull out from the EU, human rights & all that rubbish and push things a bit more hardline - Take it or leave it. No sob stories & no excuses.  (Phew! Rant over.)

This is a good post with some very good points which I mostly agree with.

Personally it upsets and outrages me that pensioners are left with very little money to live on after their meagre pensions have been spent.  It's not right.  I'm not saying they have to be exempt from the payments everybody else makes, but they don't have the income that everybody else makes, do they?  Neither do they have the means to earn it when they're in their 80s and 90s!
This d**n lily livered government needs to stop feeding the lazy gimme gimme gimme dole generation and fake asylum seekers and spend the money raising the bloody pensions, then the older folk wouldn't have a problem, would they?! 

Also, I earn pretty decent money, as does my husband and I'd glady pay more council tax than I pay now if it meant just one pensioner lived more comfortably. 

[Suzanne]

Perhaps we should bring back family values and help support our extended families? Why are so many older people alone?

[morton]

That said, I'm amazed they could find a cell for him, when they are letting criminals who have committed very serious offences out early.  Obviously to make room for all us disgruntled council tax paying pensioners!!
valmarg

If the jails are so full why don't we take them at the top end who have committed the worst offences and simply execute them. That way there would always be. room at the bottom end for new arrivals.

[Hot House]

We should.Ie all working taxpayers. :)

OK "all working taxpayers" do we (as I am working at the mo) not have enough people on are backs already ie the I won't work low life's sitting on thems arses with hands out for ever welfare going?

The last parish I was in was in the top 4percent for child poverty in the UK yes this sounds bad but when you live with them for 5yrs you why. The kids grow up thinking its a birth rite to not work and be given money by the gov because its what mum, gran and greatgran does.

[grawrc]

For me (58 and working for the last 42 years) the issue is society's attitude to the elderly. I was in a meeting yesterday where a young woman architect - could have been my granddaughter- with absolutely no experience whatever of teaching, listened to my criticisms of the proposed new build design and my explanations of what would work better and then thought it appropriate to tell me how to manage my classroom. I have almost 40 years' experience of teaching modern languages, am recognised as an expert in the field and am head of one of Edinburgh's most successful and innovative ML departments. I also have white hair and wrinkles. I could see her sizing me up and thinking "old bint, doesn't have a clue". Today many of my colleagues have come to thank me for my intervention and to applaud my comments. Quite a few of them are under 30! ;)

This is a one-off incident and I cite it only because it illustrates an attitude to older people which is very common nowadays. Old does not mean senile, useless or even unable to think outside the box. The Chinese have a totally different attitude to their elderly: recognise their worth and their wisdom and keep them in the heart of the family when they are no longer able to fend for themselves. Why don't we?

We have become a society of moochers who are happy to live off the state at the expense of the workers - of any age - and are not prepared to accept our responsibilities for ourselves, our children or our parents. Not all of us of course and not even all of the time when we do.

Taxes have increased insidiously over the years. I think it's April in each calendar year before taxpayers actually get the benefit of their earnings. The poorest pay the same VAt as the richest. there is so much that needs to change to make our society a good and fair one.

Compare that however with past times : rape, pillage, slaughter: people shut in bedlams who were perfectly sane; the workhouse for the unemployed and the elderly - husbands, wives and children split up; children down mines and up chimneys at age 7.

We've gone too far in the touchy feelie soft side direction but things are beginning to swing back and hopefully one day we will achieve a balance that respects the needs and aspirations of us all. Better, I think, to err on the softside than to return to the draconian measures of the past.