Topic: WHAT KIND OF SOCIETY ARE WE?

[redimp]

But at the end of the day our generation is buggered - We have no pension plans to speak of - All that money has now gone, and we are going to be worse off unless we cough up a huge amount now  ::)

ALL say a huge 'THANK YOU' to Gordon Brown.  He is the person that singlehandedly  ruined the final salary pension schemes.

Oh, I forgot that is only for the private sector.  The public sector still has fantastic final pay pensions, courtesy of the council/income tax payer.  We subsidise what Gordon Brown has taken away from the rest of us!!

valmarg

The fall in the value of shares is what ruined final salary pensions.  I am no fan of Gordon Brown but I am sure you must hold him responsible every time you get a cold.  Bring back Thatcher?  Most of this country's problems can still be traced back to Thatcher.  There may have been an apparent boom at the end of the eighties but it was a paper thin sham.  it was this boom with no substance that led to Black Wednesday which is what ultimately sowed the seeds for the current pension crisis - that and an aging politician.  I am afraid that the Thatcher that so many hanker after was nothing more than a very feint mirage when it actually came to achieving anything positive in the long term.

[valmarg]

It was nothing to do with the fall in share prices that ruined final salary pensions, it was Gordon Brown removing the ability of pension funds to claim back the tax on dividends.  He did that in the belief that the Stock Market was rock solid, and nothing he could do would change that.  Wrong Gordon!!  £5 billion a year, at least,  he has leeched out of pension funds in the past ten years.

State employees, ie teachers, council employees, police, etc all have their final pay pensions protected at the expense of the public sector taxpayer, at the moment!!!"

My memory goes back a bit further to the mid-late 70's, when eyebrows Healey  was going cap-in-hand to the International Monetary Fund to bail this country out of the nuts.  Inflation was c. 27%.  The 'English disease' ie strikes were the norm.

We are drifting back into the same situation.  Police wanting the right to strike. Council staff striking.  Days lost to industrial action!!

You give that repulsive man Brown the courtesy of calling him Gordon.  Why do you insist on calling Margaret Thatcher 'Thatcher'?

I'm not saying everything she did was perfect, but it was a d**n sight better than the Labour governments we had had in the past.

One thing she did, but handled badly was the Poll Tax.  It was a much fairer system than the one we had previously, and have now.

Previously, mother in law lived next door to a family of four.  Mother, husband and two children earning.  Mother in law a widowed pensioner.  Under the rates system both households paid the same.  Under the Poll Tax system it was more evenly distributed.

valmarg

[Paulines7]

Previously, mother in law lived next door to a family of four.  Mother, husband and two children earning.  Mother in law a widowed pensioner.  Under the rates system both households paid the same.  Under the Poll Tax system it was more evenly distributed.
valmarg

Your widowed mother did not get a 25% reduction in her Council Tax Valmarg?  Why was that?

Margaret Thatcher did a lot of damage to our country.  She made the top 5% of the richest people eight times richer whereas the poor became worse off.   She herself became a millionaire and there was no trickle down effect to those at the bottom.  She sold off all our assets for very little. 

Margaret Thatcher got rid of employees in hospitals, offices and schools, replacing them with agency staff.  Standards of cleanliness fell dramatically.  It will take decades for us to recover from the destructive things that she did. 

I agree that this Labour Government have not been very much better but they are a slight improvement on what we had with Thatcher and Major in power.  NHS waiting lists have fallen dramatically and standards of teaching in our schools is far better now than it has ever been.

I am reading a very enlightening book at the moment, namely "The Selfish Capitalist" by Oliver James.   The facts in the book are supported by statistics and other evidence.  Anyone who thinks Margaret Thatcher and her Government were good for this country should read this book and find out what really happened. 

[manicscousers]

thank you paulines7, we too lived , or survived , the thatcher years, and the ted heath days  ::)

[redimp]

One thing she did, but handled badly was the Poll Tax.  It was a much fairer system than the one we had previously, and have now.

Previously, mother in law lived next door to a family of four.  Mother, husband and two children earning.  Mother in law a widowed pensioner.  Under the rates system both households paid the same.  Under the Poll Tax system it was more evenly distributed.

Thank you.  That comment there means I can now ignore everything you say that is political and put it down to complete ignorance and based on self-interest. 

I am not a supporter of Council Tax but it least it does have some basis in reality.  Richer people generally have more expensive houses so deciding what people pay on the value of their house does have an element of fairness built in.  How a tax that has the Duke of Westminster paying the same as someone on the minimum wage can be described as fair and distributive is just laughable.  As you are so prone to say - you need to live in the real world.  The only fair taxes are based on income and savings.  Income Tax is fair.  Capital Gains tax is fair.  Inheritance Tax is fair (I wonder why it is the Mail and Telegraph that campaign against this tax - oh yeah, because fair taxes mean that the vast majority of their readers pay a higher burden).  Council Tax is fairer than Poll Tax but does have some unfairness.  VAT is unfair.   Personally, I believe in a local income tax which would have most pensioners paying nothing - which is where this thread started.

[betula]

I can well remember the Thatcher days.I have two sons now in their thirties.They were both doing apprenticeships ,literally earning a few pounds a week.They both had poll tax bills,with no earnings to pay for it.
I also remember the striking miners coming to the streets of Birmingham to collect money to help support them in the strike.What a mess she made of a lot of working class peoples lives.Do you remember the phase get on your bike.Encouraging families to move away and taking many away from family and friends thus taking away peoples support network especially parents of young children,no Gran or Auntie close by to help with child minding etc.
No tory will ever again get my vote.

[redimp]

I can well remember the Thatcher days.I have two sons now in their thirties.They were both doing apprenticeships ,literally earning a few pounds a week.They both had poll tax bills,with no earnings to pay for it.
I also remember the striking miners coming to the streets of Birmingham to collect money to help support them in the strike.What a mess she made of a lot of working class peoples lives.Do you remember the phase get on your bike.Encouraging families to move away and taking many away from family and friends thus taking away peoples support network especially parents of young children,no Gran or Auntie close by to help with child minding etc.
No tory will ever again get my vote.

A very good post Betula.  Re the "Get on your bike" comment from Tebbit.  It is OK to tell working class poor people to move away from where they and their families have grown up but it is not OK to advise a single elderly person rattling around in a 4 bedroom house to downgrade.

[Rhubarb Thrasher]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/wear/5138444.stm  >:(

[SamLouise]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/wear/5138444.stm  >:(

Holy cow!  >:( >:( >:(

[redimp]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/wear/5138444.stm  >:(

I dread to think what some people's reactions are going to be to that one :o

[Jeannine]

I work with a 15 year old girl who is about to have her third.Her mother is puuling her own hair out  and hates it but short of tying her up what can she do, and yes she is supported by the state,what else can they do?

[Froglegs]

Two House bricks for him and a cork for her.

[springbok]

I have a neighbour who is 29 with 11 children and already bragging about getting pregnant again. 
Each child has a different father!!!!.. and cause riot on our estate.

If i was in power i would sterilise them ... because it is irresponsible!!.. esp when living off the state!!.

[Rhubarb Thrasher]

Two House bricks for him and a cork for her.

seven different corks at least  >:(

this ones even worse
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/tyne/7275409.stm. how can you drink3 pints of vodka and orange?  >:(

[Paulines7]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/wear/5138444.stm  >:(

I dread to think what some people's reactions are going to be to that one :o

JR would say cut his fingers off!