What do you do with chickens that have finished laying..

[BarriedaleNick]

So we have one chicken that is now about 3.5 years old and has recently really slowed down plus we have an odd little bird that is only a year old but has never really got back to laying after the winter.  Added to that is that her shells are really thing despite our best feeding efforts - the consequence is that they break and now the birds seem in the habit of eating their own eggs! 

We don't have room to add more birds so logic dictates that the two have to go..  I don't consider them pets but they are still a little more than kept animals and I am a bit of a softy really..

What do you people do and if you do dispatch them - how do you do it?

Cheers

[BarriedaleNick]

[Paulines7]

I don't get rid of mine, Nick, hence my oldest bird is about 10 years old.  I have noticed she cannot see very well these days but she gets by.  I have been digging out nettles in their run and that's when I was aware that she couldn't always see the worms I threw her. 

I have three cockerels and six hens.  I couldn't put the males down just because they don't lay eggs but I have got rid of some of them in the past by taking them to market.  The problem is that they have to go in pairs and I am always afraid that someone will buy them and use them for fighting.   I have plenty of land for my birds and although they chase each other, they don't fight.   

My OH has had to despatch birds in the past when they have become ill and hates doing it. One hen had a tumour which came up in on its head and three chickens which I bought as chicks from the market, developed Marek's disease over a period of time.   I bought chicks from a nearby farm about three years ago and bred some of my own when I had a broody chicken.  They have all been healthy but, unfortunately, I have ended up with a lot of cockerels.   

I have a couple of suggestions about your two hens.  It's possible that the young one could go broody this year and this may get her out of the habit of eating her own eggs.  I assume you are giving your hens plenty of grit in the form of oyster shell which will give them more calcium?   Do the hens have plenty of room to run around?  Can their run be extended to give them something new? 

The older bird may just be having a rest from egg laying.  Do you only have these two chickens?  If you have others, are they eating eggs too?  You may end up filling an egg with mustard to get them out of the habit of eating their eggs.  See: http://www.betterhensandgardens.com/egg-eating-chickens/

[BarriedaleNick]

We just have the two and I had just read about the mustard thing!  Might have to give that a go... 
They have a enough space and we let them roam the garden when we are around (although they make a right old mess) - we have tried adding oyster shells and varying the diet with lots of greens but one consistently lays very fragile eggs which seems to have lead to them finding that they can eat their own...

I guess there are more things to try yet and I don't want to dispatch them anyway - but they aren't really pets so they do need to give us enough eggs..

[Malcolm Brown]

You probably won't like this but I will tell you.  When I first started City and Guilds Agriculture courses in 1981 very early in the course we were each given a chicken and a broom and told to kill the chicken.  It wasn't too much of a problem for me because when I was a lad in the late 40s and 50s my Grandad had a few hundred chickens for eggs and meat, my Dad kept meat rabbits and there were a number of neighbours with pigs in their back gardens or allotments.  It was a bit of a culture shock for some students though.

[Paulines7]

Is the main food you feed them layers pellets or mixed corn, Nick?  If the latter, try changing to the pellets.  There is a lot on the internet about calcium and vitamin deficiency.  I read that feeding hens cod liver oil on a pice of bread can help them.  I also read that they shouldn't have spinach as it can interfere with calcium absorption!

Once you have sorted out the calcium deficiency, is there any way that you can alter the nest box so the eggs roll out of reach after being laid? 

[BarriedaleNick]

They are on the pellets and I have added grit to the feeder and in a separate tray..  Just wondering if there is much more to be done on the food front.. 
I don't think I can mod the hen house like you suggest esp as they have taken to laying in the roost.
I think someone needs to teach my chickens how to chicken properly!

[playground]

You probably won't like this but I will tell you.  When I first started City and Guilds Agriculture courses in 1981 very early in the course we were each given a chicken and a broom and told to kill the chicken.  It wasn't too much of a problem for me because when I was a lad in the late 40s and 50s my Grandad had a few hundred chickens for eggs and meat, my Dad kept meat rabbits and there were a number of neighbours with pigs in their back gardens or allotments.  It was a bit of a culture shock for some students though.

Just out of curiosity.... how do you kill a chicken with a broom ?
Hit it on the head ?

[BarriedaleNick]

You put the chickens head under the broom handle and press down with your feet on the handle while lifting the chickens legs - breaks the neck (or the head comes off!)

In the end I dispatched mine using CO2 which seemed pretty humane.

[pumkinlover]

We now put egg shells in the oven to bake when it is in use then grind up in pestle and mortar and add to the feed, seems to have helped the soft shell issues since.
What is the CO2 method, PM if feel the need.
I worry about the fashion for keeping chickens ( as well as other animals) but with chickens how many people   would not want to dispatch an ill bird and not have access to someone who would do it quickly without suffering. I have watched OH but not actually done it so am in the same situation. Know at some time I must.

[playground]

I guess 'How to kill a (chicken/duck/goose/rabbit/guinea pig.... or capybara)'
must be a part of some farming/animal husbandry course(s) somewhere...

I just did a search of youtube for  "How to kill a chicken humanely"
Lots of results came up. 
I haven't watched any of the videos ... I would cringe...

I thought this website was interesting...
http://www.appropedia.org/Micro-livestock:_Little-known_Small_Animals_with_a_Promising_Economic_Future_7

Maybe ginea pigs might be a useful animal to farm for meat.
I'm tempted by the idea of capybara, they grow to be the size of sheep (and taste good)
but they're social and friendly, ... and hence might be impossible to kill.

[BarriedaleNick]

Well essentially you put the chicken in a box and fill it with CO2!

There is more info here

I have CO2 canisters - I had thought that putting chicks in abox might freak themout but they were perfectly happy and went very peacefully.

[galina]

Sorry to ask, but do you then put them in a rubbish plastic bag and in the domestic bin or bury them or what do you do then? 

[playground]

Well essentially you put the chicken in a box and fill it with CO2!

There is more info here

I have CO2 canisters - I had thought that putting chicks in abox might freak themout but they were perfectly happy and went very peacefully.

Hi Barriedale Nick,

I'm interested by this 'CO2 in a box' idea... so i went to click the link you supplied
but it doesn't work (for me) perhaps others have had the same experience ?

What's the same of the website I should visit to find out more ?
And how much is the C02 ?

Thanks for your help :-)

playground

[playground]

I looked on youtube for information how to kill animals with Carbon Dioxide.

here's one video:  chickens in a C02 bucket:

This video shows chickens placed into a bucket which is
then filled with carbon dioxide gas.   They do this twice with two different
chickens.  Once the tap is opened to let in the C02 gas into bucket, the
chickens immediately react by pecking or kicking the inside of the bucket.
It's not a peaceful death for these chickens, at least, not for the chickens
featured in this video... They panic and one of the chickens (the second)
nearly knocks the bucket over with it's frantic panicking.
I dont think this is a humane way of killing chickens.
It's just less UN-pleasant for the owner of the chickens
(because they can't see the suffering of the chickens ... and there's no blood)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CEy97j3vNog

here's a second video:  Rodents and Carbon Dioxide

The second video shows rodents being killed with carbon dioxide gas.
This looks altogether more peaceful.  The mice stop moving around
and start panting heavily... but they stop moving.  The chap recording
the video explains that when they start 'kicking'.. it means they're
dying or they are dead.  The mice in this video dont kick.. so the video
shows an "attempted" killing of the rodents... It's not clear that they die.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1De8sW-f_Bs

The way this chap makes C02 is interesting.. and simple. 
He mixes vinegar and baking soda to generate carbon dioxide.
This is simple, but needlessly expensive.

A cheaper and more efficient way of making C02 is to mix
apple cider vinegar with calcium carbonate powder
(calcium carbonate powder is available from ebay and pet stores--
you should be able to get it for £5 per kilo). 
Apple Cider Vinegar is preferable to regular vinegar because it has
a pH of ~2.0 (the same as the acid in your stomach -- so it's strong acid)

Using apple cider vinegar and calcium carbonate will generate more
C02 for you.  Calcium Carbonate powder is much cheaper than
baking soda.  However, apple cider vinegar is more expensive
than regular vinegar. 

The recipe this chap uses for creating C02 is one cup of vinegar to
1/4 cup of baking soda.  He doesn't use the gas he generates very
well, because he places his mice at the bottom of a 1 gallon jar.
And he generates his C02 in a separate 1 gallon jar.
This means, to kill his rodents he needs to generate 2 gallons of
C02 (absolute minimum).  That's pretty wasteful.  And this is perhaps
why his rodents were apparently knocked out (and not killed).

If he had connected 2 X 1 pint jars his requirement for C02 would
have been obviously much less than 2 gallons (16 pints).

At this point... i'm not convinced that C02 is a good way of killing
chickens... They panic and go frantic... that's obviously a sign of
high stress.   The rodents "appear" to be subdued and passified by
the C02 gas.

I know that for humans, not carbon dioxide, but carbon monoxide is
an effective and painless way of dying.    Carbon Monoxide emitting
heaters kill hundreds, possibly thousands, of people in
bedsit homes, and festival tents, across Europe every year.

For humans, carbon monoxide is painless, it results in tiredness...
people fall into a slumber and simply suffocate in their sleep.

I wonder if a C01 gas generator could be used rather than C02.
At this point in time, however, i don't know how to make C01.
 

[playground]

Carbon monoxide is made in the lab by mixing concentrated Formic Acid
with concentrated Sulfuric Acid.  Both acids are very highly corrosive.
You really will regret getting either of them on your skin. 
These chemicals are dangerous and will be virtually impossible for
non-chemists to obtain. 

Here's a youtube video on the subject of making carbon monoxide
(for those with an interest in this)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wv45mog1n38

So the idea of making carbon monoxide gas seems to be a non-starter.

-----

However, it is possible to buy carbon monoxide gas.
"Detectagas" is a small canister of carbon monoxide gas, only 400 ml.
It's intended purpose is testing that carbon monoxide gas monitors
are working properly.  See here:
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/DETECTAGAS-Home-Fire-Safety-CO-Carbon-Monoxide-Gas-Alarm-Detector-TESTER-SPRAY-/121787926413?hash=item1c5b20478d:g:lm8AAOSwA4dWHuip

You'd likely need several canisters of Detectagas to kill a chicken.
The cost of Detectagas is £16 each (on ebay, right now)
The cost is prohibitive ... Detectagas is a non-starter for this purpose.

Unless a readily available and cheap source of carbon monoxide gas can
be found, this idea ... simply isn't viable.

[playground]

PETA stands for People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals.
In 2008 PETA reached a deal with a large group of KFC Restaurant
franchisees in Canada.

Under an agreement with PETA signed May 5, KFC Canada will phase-in
over eight years the use of "controlled-atmosphere killing" for all chickens
bought for its restaurants. PETA calls that the "least-cruel form of poultry
slaughter ever developed."

The "CAK" method involves removing oxygen from crates that carry
chickens and replacing it with inert gases such as argon or nitrogen,
PETA spokesman Matt Prescott said Tuesday. The birds do not suffocate
but die painlessly as they breathe the gases, he said.

source: http://www.abolitionistapproach.com/animal-rights-debate/endnotes/59.pdf


Question:  How much does Argon gas cost ?
Answer:  3 canisters  = £29, 1 canister = £13
The canister regulator costs another £10 (approx)
Each can contains 60L.  If you used the gas efficiently
(using a small bucket) then perhaps you could kill a chicken
with only 6 liters of argon gas.... so 10 dead chickens
per canister.  So let's say £13 (canister) + £10 regulator = £23
(so £2.30 per dead chicken) 
All my numbers are based on ebay prices.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Argon-Pure-Disposable-Welding-Mig-Gas-Bottle-Welders-1369-60-L-Litre-/190673422548?hash=item2c650588d4:m:mau-0ECOSqpGQIqYSq5whCQ

Question:  How much does Nitrogen gas cost ?
1 canister takes 220 Liters and costs £39 (including £9 postage)
6 liters of nitrogen per dead chicken.  So 36 dead chickens per canister.
So let's say £39 (canister) + £10 regulator = £49
(£49 / 36 = £1.33 per dead chicken)
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Nitrogen-N2-disposable-gas-bottle-cylinder-for-plumbers-and-air-con-installers-/172265138528?hash=item281bcd6960:g:lTwAAOSwR5dXSErL


The PETA argument, is that chickens don't suffocate when breathing in
these 'inert' gases (argon and nitrogen). 

But... in practice, they look a lot like they are suffocating to me. 
I found this video on youtube of a chicken killed with argon gas:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fV-keeSVXf0

QUESTION: Is the chicken in the above video suffering less
than it would if it's throat was slit, or it's neck was broken ? 

This video doesn't look like the chicken falls asleep and then
dies quietly. 

I wonder if this chap in the video is doing it wrong.
Perhaps... the speed with which the argon is introduced to the
bucket, effectively forces out all the air (oxygen) and the chicken
has no chance to drift into a fatal sleep, it must suffocate with
the sudden absence of oxygen.

I wonder if there are any 'best practice' videos / websites on
how to 'slaughter' chickens with argon/nitrogen.

[playground]

Some pertinent quotes taken from the 'free from harm' website:

Animal welfarists are calling for a gas-based technology that kills
the birds in the transport crates prior to shackling, thus sparing
them the pain, terror and torture of live shackling, electrical shock,
neck cutting, and for millions of birds each year, being scalded alive.
Both neck cutting and carbon dioxide (CO2) are
"distressing and inevitably painful, "says animal scientist Mohan Raj.
When CO2 levels exceed 30 percent, birds gasp, shake their heads,
and stretch their necks (unsuccessfully) to breathe.

By contrast, birds exposed to pure argon/nitrogen gases apparently
do not experience aversion to these gases, because birds, like humans,
have chemical receptors in their lungs that are very sensitive toCO2,
but they do not have receptors to detect argon or nitrogen.
Presumably, birds exposed to these gases do not experience the
pain, panic, and suffocation caused by CO2 (7).

However, birds exposed to pure argon/nitrogen gases
flap their wings violently as they die, resulting in broken wing bones.
Since these broken wings cannot be marketed to consumers of
"buffalo wings," the poultry industry will not adopt pure
argon/nitrogen.

source:  http://freefromharm.org/farm-animal-welfare/from-poultry-farm-to-plate-the-need-for-legislation-to-protect-chickens-and-turkeys/

Presumably, owners of chickens on allotments and family gardens
just want their chickens to die with the least suffering.  Broken wing
bones happen in 'some' proportion of birds.. what proportion we
are not told.

[playground]

Recently, actually today, i learned that Carbon Dioxide gas (CO2)
is used to study panic and panic attacks in human beings.

It doesn't cause people to run around wildly, but it does
cause people emotional distress.

Here are some research papers to illustrate the point.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2492423
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26332431
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26141602

Of-course, human beings are much more sophisticated
than chickens.  And chickens aren't even mammals, so
this evidence doesn't mean that chickens also panic when
exposed to CO2 gas....

...but they behave as if they are panicking.
The video shown in one of the posts above of the 2 chickens
killed with carbon dioxide, didn't go quietly, they went
frantic very quickly after the CO2 gas was introduced.

I'm beginning to wonder if the simplest, cheapest and
least cruel means of killing chickens is either to
'ring their necks' or to chop their heads off...

But... that's easier said than done (for me at least)