Chrysanthemum advice please

[Deb P]

I am growing Chrysanthemums for the first time this year, which I purchased as rooted cuttings. They were pinched out when I got them and are potted on and growing fast, but I'm a bit confused about further pinching out; some advise pinching the tops out again at about 8 inches high, others say remove side shoots.......I'm growing them for cutting not showing, and all the plants a have two side shoots and a main shoot and are about 7 inches high. Can anyone advise please?

[Deb P]

[johhnyco15]

try this link deb but tg is your man  http://www.thegardenhelper.com/chrysanthemum.htm

[Tee Gee]

Now for a crash course in Chrysant growing, but let me tell you even after thirty years of growing them I never ever got it quite right as I tended to get more seconds that firsts at the shows.

I am growing Chrysanthemums for the first time this year, which I purchased as rooted cuttings.

Good!

They were pinched out when I got them

Thats not so good unless you got them from a specialist who knows the varieties you have.

I'm a bit confused about further pinching out; some advise pinching the tops out again at about 8 inches high, others say remove side shoots.......

To explain the reason for 'stopping' them, pinching them out as you put it, is to give some control on the number , size, type and time of the flowers you will ultimately get.

The reason for your confusion is because there are many classifications of Chrysants around thirty in fact as you can see here:

http://www.thegardenersalmanac.co.uk/Data/Chrysanthemum/Chrysanthemum.htm

Trouble is I do not know what type you have to be able to give you specific advice on, unless you know the names of the varieties you have.

If you have this suggests that they may be registered with the NCS and if so I could get the type and classification from the name, so if you have some names reply to this article andd I will try and source the information.

Briefly the reason for the conflicting stopping advice is: if you have sprays you grow them one way and if you  have disbuds you treat them differently.

Get back to me with some names if you have them and I will be more specific.

If you do not have names then I will make a guess as to what you have and what to do with them.

Similarly if you do not have names can you tell me who you got your cuttings from e.g. was he/she a recognised Chrysant grower then I will make a more infomed guess based on the plants being stopped before you bought them.

[Deb P]

Gosh I didn't expect such specific advice based on the varieties!
Purchased mine from Sarah Raven. To be fair, there was info. sheet with them, but just not very specific! The varieties I have are:

Chrysanthemum 'Blenda Purple'
Chrysanthemum 'Bella Orange'
Chrysanthemum 'Bruno Bronze'
Chrysanthemum 'Littleton Red'
Chrysanthemum 'Smokey Purple'
Chrysanthemum 'Payton Blaze Red'

In very grateful for any advice, I'm pretty confident I can take my own cuttings and grow them on once the main plant is big enough, it's the next stage pinchingout/stopping at the stage they are now that is confusing me!

[Tee Gee]

OK. You have reflexed  'Spray Chrysanthemums' which are classified as 29c

I'm pretty confident I can take my own cuttings and grow them on once the main plant is big enough, it's the next stage pinchingout/stopping at the stage they are now that is confusing me!

I get the impression you want to take cuttings soon we'll sorry you will have difficulty now because your plants have already been stopped.

If they hadn't been you could have tried rooting the tip when you removed the tip (pinched out)

You say you have two side shoots (breaks) plus the main shoot well that all you are going to get unless you stop each of these again which I would not recommend, but that's not to say you can't

I'm afraid your plants have been stopped too soon, usually you would stop your plants when they are around 6"-8" tall or about 6-8 pairs of leaves, or if you are exhibiting at a particular date which for me is mid to late May.

Breaks occur from the leaf axil so if they had been stopped at say 4-6 pairs of leaves  you would have got 4-6 breaks ( side shoots) and more breaks means more flower stems.

I would be tempted to cut the main shoot out to just above the top break then remove the growing tip from the other two breaks ( side shoots) and start again.

This way you would get two to three breaks per original break so you could end up with 4-6 flower stems per plant.

If you decide to go this way you could try rooting the growing tips you removed.( see my webpage for method)

Now to the stopping process which is not rocket science it simply means removing the growing tip to stop the main stem growing on and encouraging the plant to form new breaks ( side shoots)

The size  of tip you remove is subject to whether you want to root them or not, if rooting remove 2" of tip. One inch will do if not rooting.

That is all the stopping that is required until the stems come into bud when you remove the crown bud ( the top / centre one) this encourages more buds to form. If you leave the crown bud it will form a largish flower with numerous other smaller buds around it as seen in Sahah Ravens catalogue, where as removing it usually results in the flowers being of a similar size as seen on the pictures on my website.

I will end here before I confuse you even more, but if you need anything clarifying then get back to me

[Deb P]

That is really helpful thank you Tee Gee!

[Deb P]

I had a close look at my plants this morning, I think I will let them grow a little more and then stop them with at least five or six potential breaks on the main shoot and use the top as a cutting. I'll remove the crown buds when they appear as you suggest as I would prefer even sprays of flowers for cutting. Thank you for your sage advice as usual! 

[Tee Gee]

Glad you are going the route you have chosen.

What I will try and do this afternoon is take some pictures of the stopping process, it's something I should have done a long time ago to add to my website data.

I also want to add a few more comments to what I have previously written that Ithink you will need.

Catch you later....Tg

[johhnyco15]

That is really helpful thank you Tee Gee!

told ya tg was the man lol

[Tee Gee]

Lets take this subject a bit further!

You say:

I'm a bit confused about further pinching out; some advise pinching the tops out again at about 8 inches high,
others say remove side shoots.......

I'm growing them for cutting not showing, and all the plants a have two side shoots and a main shoot and are about 7 inches high.

OK what is Stopping?

This consists of pinching out the growing tips to encourage flower-bearing laterals.

The reason for 'stopping' them, pinching them out as you put it, is to give some control on the number, size, type and time of the flowers you will ultimately get.

Sadly this has been curtailed somewhat because they were stopped prior to you getting them.

If I had received the plants in this condition I would have sent them back!

But now you have them lets see how we can make the best of what you have got.



I have looked in the catalogue to see what the varieties you have look like and what type are they.

Sadly I don't like what I see in so far as I cant tell if they are disbuds growing as sprays or indeed true sprays.

I will take them in turn and comment on them individually.


'Blenda Purple'



This one is so young when the picture was taken it is difficult to say if it is a true Spray or a disbud that has been allowed to set many flowers.

'Bella Orange'



I think this is a true Spray.

'Bruno Bronze'



This is a true spray I think but on seeing all these buds I would say it has been poorly grown an that is, the side shoots have been allowed grow.

'Littleton Red'



I see this one in the same way as Bruno Bronze.

'Smokey Purple'



This is another spray that was very young when its picture was taken and it is difficult to assess its potential.

'Payton Blaze Red'



Another one with too many buds for my liking!

OK what are we going to do about it?

As I see it we have a silk purse and pigs ear situation meaning....can we do it or not?

You say you want to go for re-stopping or a '2nd stop' to use the correct parlance.

The stopping is no problem but whether you will successfully root the tip I am not sure, but as they say nothing ventured then nothing gained so go for it!

If it does root it might not flower outdoors so I would suggest you pot the rooted cuttings up and grow them on in a 5"-6" pot so that you can fetch them indoors when the weather turns cold later in the season, i.e. treat them as late flowering specimens. If nothing else and they survive the winter you will have additional stock to take cuttings from next year.

Stopping

Have a look at the table on my website

Begin Stopping Programme    20-22    20-22    14-18   18-24

Which is any time over the next two weeks I often use the end of the month subject to the quality of my plants.

Examples:

A Typical plant that is ready for its first stop.

Note this one is in a pot for demo reasons but the same technique would be used if they were planted out in the bed.



The stopping point

As you are going to try and root the tip I would suggest you go down to the next leaf joint and this will give you a longer cutting.



A Plant that has been stopped.



The Removed tip



Prepared Cutting



Yours will be longer if you have gone down to the next leaf joint.

Now this is what I think has happened at Raven's!



In this case what happened was the tip was accidently broken off and the plant prematurely made low breaks.

But the synic in me suggests that with your plants this stopping was done for commercial reasons and that is they wanted the tip to produce another rooted cutting so they can earn a few bob more from the plant i.e. two for the price of one...........this is naughty but I have done it myself on occasions when I am short of cutting material so not surprising.

For example if I have sent for rooted cuttings I have asked for an early delivery so to give me a bit of time to form another rooted cutting.

You were not given this opportunity and that is the reason I would have sent them back!

To sum up and for the benefit of others reading this post always go to a NCS approved supplier and you are more likely to get good stock.(But not alway)



Back to further cultural procedures with what you have got:

I previously mentioned that once you have stopped your plant you usually will have very little more to do until the plants are in bud.

But in your case based on all the buds I saw in the catalogue pictures I think you will find that you are going to get lots of side shoots forming in the leaf joints before bud formation.

These want removing!

An analogy would be a tomato plant! as you know if you do not remove the sideshoots they will turn into wispy soft growths that may fruit but the fruit quality is poor.

The same will happen with chrysants like these, that is the side shoot will be too soft and bendy to support the flower head, so you end up with a plant that looks like a chandalier



OK lets say you end up with anything between three to six breaks the stems will normally be quite woody and about the thickness of your little finger, and topped with a series of buds and here lies the crux of the matter for you!

With a true spray you will have a cluster of buds with the crown bud in the centre which should be removed to allow space for the surrounding buds to open and produce open flowers.

With Dis-buds the procedure is slightly different in so far as you remove all the periphial buds and leave the crown bud to flower hence the name...disbud!

Now I am going to close here as the rest would only be speculation but perhaps when your plants come into bud you might upload a few pictures of the plants and hopefully there might be tell tale signs that would tell you (and me) to treat them as sprays or disbuds.

I hope this information has been of assistance to you,and if there is anything you are unsure of give us a shout....Tg

[small]

This comment adds nothing at all to the debate on growing chrysanths. (Which I would be totally unable to do.) But I had to say, what a total star TeeGee is to go to so much trouble sharing his knowledge. Sir, your website is a wonderful resource and you are a true gardener's friend! Deb, I hope you can get what you want from your plants....

[Deb P]

That makes a lot more sense now, but I can't help but feel a little cheated now I know my supplied plants were prematurely stopped! The info supplied with them explained they had been pinched out but made it sound like that was a good thing: my ignorance of what I should have been expecting did not help here...

However, I now feel much more clued up! The tomato plant analogy I understand perfectly, that makes a lot of sense to me thank goodness so I feel on more familiar territory there.

I presume any cuttings I manage to propagate may not reach flowering potential outdoors because they are so far behind now.... but I can find room in my lottie greenhouse for them so that's not a problem. I will be happy to take photos when the plants are ready to perform! Thanks again for you amazingly detailed information and pictures.

[Tee Gee]

! The info supplied with them explained they had been pinched out but made it sound like that was a good thing: my ignorance of what I should have been expecting did not help here...

I had already thought of that you are not the first person to fall for this and you won't be the last.

I often give plants to people and I usually stop them before I pass them over but the difference is I know what classification my plants are in so I can do this with confidence that all will be OK

But this is a business handling many classifications and and sadly there is not a stopping system that covers all.

As I mentioned earlier there are thirty classification so imagine  permutating these to suit a growers location, then permutate again for different varieties and you get thousands of permutation.

So yes it is easier to tell their customers they have taken care of the stopping for them.

I have read the data sheet they send with their orders and it is very basic and is not a lie, it will suit some people & varieties but not all.

If you were a member of the National Chrysanthemum Society as I once was,  you would find that they produce a book specifically dedicated to stopping dates.

This book contains data on thousands of varieties.

Many of the specialist suppliers often give the classification,the stopping date and height of each of the varieties hence me recommending using a specialist supplier.

Raven's are certainly not specialist chrysanthemum growers hence the service you get.

So do not feel guilty it's like many aspects of gardening you will find that garden centres usually give general information at best and you have to go to the specialist supplier if you want to specialise in something.

Let me make a suggestion and do as I do when you want good cuttings.

In my case I visit Harrogate Spring Show where the local Chrysanthemum society usually has a stall and sells plants for their funds. So find out where your local society hangs out and get in contact with them and they will put you in touch with the best way to get good virus free plants.

What you have to be careful about is a lot of chrysanthemum are now being imported from Europe and some of these are sometimes affected with white rust which can lead to fatal results.

I lost all of my stock last year to this because my wife bought some charm chrysanthemum from Aldi  that were affected and these affected my stock.

Luckily I still have contacts in the Chrysanthemum world so I have been able to replace them.

Well I think that's all I have to say on this subject  and I sincerely hope it has been useful to both you Debs and some other A4A members.

[Deb P]

I'm going to Gardeners World Live next month, I always go to the plant associations and societies area so will look for their stand then.

I love gardening for the very reason there is always something new to learn or a new approach to try, but the diversity of the chysanthemum world has been a revelation to me......what have I got myself into! This is the beauty of this forum, fantastic access to gardeners with brilliant knowledge and specialist knowledge, I am so grateful for your time and very detailed information

[Tee Gee]

I'm going to Gardeners World Live next month, I always go to the plant associations and societies area so will look for their stand then.

Hi Debs

Can I suggest a few varieties to look for that are relatively easy to grow, give a good display and flower for ages.

Chrysanthemums can be a bit promiscuous and as a result of this there are lots of series on the market each with their own offspring

For example they tend to contain the parent name and are often prefixed or suffixed with a colour e.g Enn Bee Wedding a pink single (the parent) or Honey Enn Bee wedding which  is a Honey coloured single.

Series:

Enn Bee Wedding

Talbot Parade

Southway

Pennine

Margaret*

* Margarets are a very old variety and in my opinion the best variety but are not quite as common nowadays because they were prone to contracting White Rust so very few people stock them anymore.

If you want to see what they look like do a google of the parent name or have a look at the slide show on my website

http://www.thegardenersalmanac.co.uk/Data/Chrysanthemum/Chrysanthemum.htm

Just another word of warning go to the chrysanthemum specialist stalls only, some of the big well known companies will have them but they are often imported...ask the stall holder if the are grown in their own nursery or are they imported. if imported you might be safer not to buy them.

We'ii make a chrysanthemum grower out of you yet

[Deb P]

Brief update: I stopped the plants when they all had four or five breaks below my stopping point, and used the tops as cuttings. The plants look healthy and the main stems are thickening quickly now. I'm going to pot them on once more then plant the out in a few weeks hopefully!

[Tee Gee]

Brief update: I stopped the plants when they all had four or five breaks below my stopping point, and used the tops as cuttings. The plants look healthy and the main stems are thickening quickly now. I'm going to pot them on once more then plant the out in a few weeks hopefully!

Who's a clever girl then?

[Tee Gee]

Just as a follow up Debs I thought I would show you how the breaks are forming on my Chrysant plants so that you can compare with your plants.



Over the next few days I will be raising the net support possibly around 6"-9". The height will variy due to the different habits and progress of each plant/variety.

[Deb P]

I like your netting idea, I am tempted to try it out on my lottie flower raised bed and plant half of my chysanthemums there and keep the other half at home. I've got shoots coming along nicely now my plants have been repotted and are outside so they should be planted out in the near future. Don't you risk damaging your plants by raising the netting? Or is it worth having two layers for extra support?

[Tee Gee]

Don't you risk damaging your plants by raising the netting? Or is it worth having two layers for extra support? 

Yes!

Having said that I am a bit late in doing it this year so I will have to be extra careful.

Regarding two layers; I think because some plants break at different levels working with two layers would make the task more difficult!