Statutory or tempoary how to get proof

[aland26uk]

hi I'm new to here  but I would like to know if anyone knows how to get proof  about our allotments ( Ambleside Avenue Redcar ) to whether it is a statutory or temporary our council say it is temporary but I have heard that it is a statutory site but with out proper proof who are we to believe ??? so any help would be gratefull and much appreciated Alan

[aland26uk]

[Unwashed]

Hi Alan, and welcome to A4A.

A site is "statutory" if it was purchased or appropriated for allotments.  The statutory protection comes from Section 8 of the Allotments Act 1925:

8. Sale, &c., of land used as allotments.

Where a local authority has purchased or appropriated land for use as allotments the local authority shall not sell, appropriate, use, or dispose of the land for any purpose other than use for allotments without the consent of the Minister of Agriculture and Fisheries and such consent may be given unconditionally or subject to such conditions as the Minister thinks fit, but shall not be given unless the Minister is satisfied that adequate provision will be made for allotment holders displaced by the action of the local authority or that such provision is unnecessary or not reasonably practicable.

The test then is to look at how the council came to own the site.  Councils should know, but sometimes their records are not very good, sometimes they might not understand the legislation, and sometimes they might want to hide the truth so that they can dispose of a site and avoid the statutory protection.

There isn't exactly any hard and fast rule as such because it would always be open to a council to argue that it had not purchased or appropriated a site for allotments and the courts would then have to decide on the facts, probably by way of judicial review.

You should ask the council what statutory power they relied on to purchase or acquire the site and make a request under the Freedom of Information Act and Environmental Information Regulations for the documentary evidence such as the minute that documents the council's decision to acquire the site and any conveyance relating to the acquisition. 

If they can show that they got hold of the site for some other definite purpose and only started using it for allotments at a later time then it's difficult to argue that the site has statutory protection, whereas if you can show that they had allotments in mind when the got, and especially if it was already allotments when they got it, then that's pretty compelling evidence that it has statutory protection.

How do the council say they came to own the site?

[aland26uk]

hi unwashed, thanks for the quick reply,
as to your question: How do the council say they came to own the site? that is a question that I haven't asked and I will have to ask at our next meeting.
"a request under the Freedom of Information Act and Environmental Information Regulations for the documentary evidence" that's something I will have to look into as I don't have a clue how and where to ask that  question,
so theres  lots of stuff for me to get on with now.

thanks alan

[Unwashed]

This site is quite convenient for making FoI and EIR requests:  https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/

Just create yourself an account, find the local authority in their listings, and ask them a question:

"I would like to know if the allotment site on Ambleside Avenue Redcar was purchased or appropriated by the council for use as allotments or for some other purpose.  Would you please let me have any information you have that might throw light on this question such as any history you may have about how the site came to be owned by the council and its history of use, any minute that records the council's decision to acquire the site and its intended purpose, any conveyance or contract of sale for the site, and any other information you have that would help reveal the council's purpose in acquiring the site."

You don't have to mention FoI or anything like that, you just need to ask for the information you want.  The council have 20 working days to give you the information you ask for or else give you a valid reason for not letting you have it.  Councils can at times be reluctant to hand over information, especially if there is a likelihood of them selling the site, so you might need to go back and ask for a review.  Come back if you need more help and let us know how you get on.

[aland26uk]

hi unwashed thanks for all your help. I have cut and pasted your suggested question on our local council website where I have managed to find the webpage for requesting Freedom of Information  https://www.redcar-cleveland.gov.uk/forms.nsf/foirequest?readform   now its time to sit and wait

thanks again for your help
alan

[Unwashed]

Good job.  Let us know how you get on.

[aland26uk]

well unwashed I got a speedy reply today  and not the one I was hoping for.

there  Response:
I can confirm we _partially__ hold the information requested.
Based on the information available, the land was acquired under the Housing
Acts and as such it is believed to be held as a temporary rather than a
statutory allotment.

With regards to your request of the conveyance and related minutes.
i) Conveyance – A copy of the transfer and conveyance should be
available from Durham Land Registry the registered title number for
the land in question is YK1294.
ii) Minutes – Unfortunately we do not hold records of this type dating
back to 1952 which was the date of the transfer.

now according to the national allotment society they said :
According to the 1996 survey the below was Type 1 which means statutory. (taken from survey)  This was part of Langbaurgh Borough Council. Time to contact them again I think

[Unwashed]

You're going to have to do some digging and find out a bit more about the history of the site.  Do you know much about the history of the allotment site? 

If the Council acquired the site in 1952 for housing development and then subsequently put allotments on the site then it isn't a statutory site, and even if there were allotments there in 1952 then unless they were already statutory allotments I can't see that they would be now if the council didn't actually acquire the site for allotments.

However, if the council that acquired the site in 1952 is not actually the same council that owns the site now, and I don't think it is because you've had a reasonable amount of local government reorganisation between then and now, then it's possible that the site may have picked up statutory status when ownership transferred - if council a put allotments on the site, and then transferred the site to council b as allotments as part of some local government reorganisation, then you might just have an argument, though you'd still have to show that the council acquired the site for allotments and not just as allotments, and that won't necessarily be easy.

If you can find from the National why they think the site has statutory protection then that might be useful, but the National just telling you that it's on their database as statutory means nothing at all.

[Unwashed]

I would also argue that just because the land was acquired under the Housing Act that doesn't mean it was acquired exclusively for housing, and as the council clearly intended to build a housing estate complete with allotment site I would argue that in fact the site was acquired for both housing and allotments, and specifically the site occupied by the allotments was acquired for allotments, and thus attracts the Section 8. protection.

See if you can't find the original plans for the Estate and see if an allotment site is shown on the map.  The plans might be available in the local library, or the council might still have them somewhere.  I think if you can find an allotment site sketched in on some early plans then I think you'll have a good argument.

[Digeroo]

Surely if they cannot produce the relevant minutes they cannot prove it was bought for housing either.

[aland26uk]

well I  decided to ask the question again to redcar and Cleveland council regarding the above question and got this reply

https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/345788/response/855030/attach/html/4/RESPONSE%20FOI%200590.doc.html

alan

[ancellsfarmer]

Seems to be a job well done.
Did it take 3 years for the answer?

[pumkinlover]

Well done for your  perseverance.

[picman]

Alan  , well done on hanging in there.. A*

[aland26uk]

hi I have always thought about  this topic and after giving up on it  2013 and  after trying to find out I decided to have another go and asked the question again and this  was my answer  from  2013  below

"I would like to know where to ask  the council what statutory power they relied on to purchase or acquire  the allotment on (Ambleside Avenue Redcar)  and make a request under the Freedom of Information Act and Environmental Information Regulations. for the documentary evidence such as the minute that documents the council's decision to acquire the site and any conveyance relating to the acquisition. ie: if it is a statutory or tempory site
Our Response:

I can confirm we _partially__ hold the information requested.

Based on the information available, the land was acquired under the Housing Acts and as such it is believed to be held as a temporary rather than a statutory allotment.

With regards to your request of the conveyance and related minutes.
i)   Conveyance – A copy of the transfer and conveyance should be available from Durham Land Registry the registered title number for the land in question is YK1294.
ii)   Minutes – Unfortunately we do not hold records of this type dating back to 1952 which was the date of the transfer."

so two different answers

[pumkinlover]

Keep a copy of the latest one!

[aland26uk]

 iv saved it to my laptop and I think I might print a few out and keep a printed copy and maby  one  to put on the notice board