Topic: Inner city allotments in unused sites

[sophie.triggs]

My name is Sophie Triggs, I am a final year Interior Architecture student at Nottingham Trent University.

For my final project and dissertation I am exploring the issue of waiting lists for allotments in the UK, and as part of my research I am looking into how I can come up with a concept to combat this by bringing allotments back into the city centre.

I would be grateful for any feedback on this you may have, thanks

[Bill Door]

Hi Sophie.  The subject seems to be a reasonable concept.

However, I am not sure what you are trying to reach.

For instance you mention waiting lists.  Well we all have different stories about those that range from who keeps them to how many already have an allotment or how many on the list are just "tyre kickers".

You have mentioned that you want to bring allotments back into city centres.  Not sure that they were ever there in the first place. Was there , or is there enough space in the city centres to place allotments.

Having thought about it you could consider vertical gardens (plenty on-line).  These could be both soil and hydroponics or aquaponics (again plenty on-line).  These would obviuosly have to take into account structural alterations to the buildings to accommodate the equipment and the weight of water/soil.

Obviously you will have to take into account the "human" factor and why people want an allotment.  For instance what effect would it have on someone if they were unable to keep up their "plot" if it was hanging outside their window?  Or how they would feel if their plot was handed to another on the waiting list.  Then there would be the problem of access.  Also how will the loss of a "woman" or ?"man" shed affect each individual.  Where would the tools, if any, would be stored?

Looks to be an interesting project and will be looking forward to seeing your dissertation when it is complete.

Bill

P.S.  just think about it, no dig, no grass and no weeds.  What would be the effect on the UK economy?

[Melbourne12]

Hello, Sophie, and welcome.

Do you really mean "city centres", or do you mean those inner city areas around the very centre which are now given over to intensive housing?  Because allotments are only attractive to those with the time and motivation to want to grow things, or to use gardening for exercise and relaxation.  You're unlikely to find that in city centres, but you will find it in areas that are mainly housing.

If you're interested in waiting lists, you might like to probe the reality of waiting lists a bit more deeply.  We live in Harrow, a quite densely populated suburb, where the council will tell you that there are significant waiting lists for allotments.  Yet when we first started, about 7 years ago, we found that not only had many allotments not been worked for years, many whole sites had remained un-tenanted.  The situation has improved somewhat, but it's still an artificial shortage rather than a real one.

[andyswarbs]

Sophie, Just doing a dissertation on waiting lists might be a worthwhile project.  For instance a permanently empty waiting list is something that is in absolutely no-one's best interests, so be careful what you wish for!  Andy

[sophie.triggs]

Hi all, thanks for the responses, they have been quite insightful!

From the research I have gathered over the last few months about - allotment waiting lists, the spread of allotments around  Nottingham, I found that there were none in the city centre, surrounded by the ring road.

I feel that having a place in the city centre is an ideal opportunity as it will give city centre dwellers - young professionals, young urban families etc the chance to grow their own produce at a much smaller and attractive scale using modern growing methods such as hydroponics//aquaponics. The site i feel would be 'supervised' and managed daily by workers who would also have private growing areas to see in a pick your own style shop. So people do no not need to worry about their produce spoiling with their hectic lives, but just tend on a regular, practical basis.

I think the most suitable way of bringing the 'allotment' to the city centre will be to use derelict industrial buildings, buy using modern methods inside and the land that sometimes accompanies them to host raised beds and fruit trees, a cheaper and viable alternative than to demolish a site and purify the land.

I am concerned however, that the 'traditional' allotment holder may not like the idea of using modern technologies to grow plants, what do you think about this?

Any comments will be greatly appreciated!!! :) thanks

[Melbourne12]

Sophie, Just doing a dissertation on waiting lists might be a worthwhile project.  For instance a permanently empty waiting list is something that is in absolutely no-one's best interests, so be careful what you wish for!  Andy

I think that this is a good point.

I suspect that a very good dissertation, or at least part of it, could be made by building a computer model of allotment occupation and waiting lists.  It's observable that allotment tenants occupy their plots for quite different periods.  Broadly, you get:

• Diehards, who, having started, will stay with it until illness or old age overtakes them;
• Aficionados, who may be deflected by family circumstances, or job moves, or some such.  They are likely to resume allotmenteering when circumstances improve, though
• Dilettantes, who get a plot in a rosy glow of optimism, realise that it's hard work, and give it up.  Sometimes within weeks.  They are unlikely ever to return

On our site, at least, the greatest number of people, although the least number of person-years, is in the third category. 

As well as estimating the occupation behaviour of allotmenteers, you'd need to take into account plot size (my personal observation is that small plots can be counterproductive by attracting Dilettantes), seasonal occupancy starts (people are more likely to take an allotment at the start of the season than in, say, July when the weeds are 6 feet tall), behaviour of people when they end their involvement (which may vary between clear resignation and allowing the plot to run down) and the administrative load on the allotment landlord (who may have to serve notice to tenants who aren't cultivating properly, during which the allotment gets overgrown and less attractive).

I suspect that a simple Monte Carlo model would produce some interesting results, including the optimum waiting list per hundred plots, and the possible effects of promoting allotments to those that haven't considered them before.

ETA

...
I feel that having a place in the city centre is an ideal opportunity as it will give city centre dwellers - young professionals, young urban families etc the chance to grow their own produce at a much smaller and attractive scale using modern growing methods such as hydroponics//aquaponics. The site i feel would be 'supervised' and managed daily by workers who would also have private growing areas to see in a pick your own style shop. So people do no not need to worry about their produce spoiling with their hectic lives, but just tend on a regular, practical basis.

I think the most suitable way of bringing the 'allotment' to the city centre will be to use derelict industrial buildings, buy using modern methods inside and the land that sometimes accompanies them to host raised beds and fruit trees, a cheaper and viable alternative than to demolish a site and purify the land.

I am concerned however, that the 'traditional' allotment holder may not like the idea of using modern technologies to grow plants, what do you think about this?
...

I suspect that most allotment holders would give their eye teeth to get a share of a modern glass-roofed house, especially for tender plants, fruit, and raising seedlings!  I'd certainly swap some of my retirement time for a space in your modern grow-house.  But you'll need to be realistic about heating costs and rates, and probably at least one paid staff member, even if the majority are volunteers/paid by free access to the facilities.

How much are the young professionals and young families going to have to pay?  Is it going to be cheaper than a gym membership?  Is it going to be cheaper than an Abel & Cole veg box?

[Bill Door]

Hi Sophie.  Just read your post.

I think you are looking at a "communal pick your own"  with a couple of poor sods doing the lumber to allow young professionals to reap the benefit of the stock and have the "bragging" rights.

Having an allotment is nothing to do with that.  Some do it for the social connection as well as the prospect of fresh vegetables any time.

Some do it for the relaxation and talk to like minded people about the weather as well as the failures.  If you want the concept of a communal garden then you have to start with the idea of a community.

If you think that young professionals will convert to the type that you will need then i don't think that you have had any experience of the go getter professional that will walk over everyone to get precisely what they need.  Yes there are some lovely professionals out there but they don't look to be in a commune. 

I would suggest that your first move now would be to visit a local allotment site after speaking to the secretary to discuss just what allotmenteers are like and how they think.  You could do that through the Allotment services run by Nottingham City Council  http://www.nottinghamcity.gov.uk and see what the team could arrange.

Your dissertation should be based on more research than discussions on this site.  After all saying you confered with DEATH on his day off will not look good in your Bibliography.  I wish you well but think that may be time is getting short.



Regards

Bill Door (DEATH)

[sophie.triggs]

Hi, thanks for the responses!

Yes, I am planning on making a trip to some of the allotment sites around the city over then next couple of months, in the meantime just regarding the allotments of today I was wondering if you could answer a few of the following questions to help me get an insight as to how they differ / or are similar

At your allotments how many plots are used all year round?

What are the demographics age/sex of people that use the allotments?

What are the busiest days at your allotment sites?

How often do you visit your plot?

Does the idea of using modern technology appeal to you, ie: aquaponics / hyrdoponics if it were available at a community site at a reasonable cost?

Do you like the idea of a 'pick your own' shop - a farm shop in the city centre where you can pick fresh fruit, veg and herbs that are growing on hydroponic living walls right in front of you, you can see the food growing and actually cut what you want and pay for it.

Any feedback / comments would be much appreciated, thanks again :)

[Bill Door]

Hi again Sophie.  Hmmm well here goes

At your allotments how many plots are used all year round?  This is difficult to say as some plots are empty (no tenant) and others were dug in September/October with only a few or no crops available for harvest.  So there are different interpretations of "in use".  Very few will dig/plant or sow bewteen November and March (too cold, too wet and not enough light). Some new tenants start in September and spend a few hours preparing the plot.  Then they realise the commitment and somehow the "good life" does not seem so "good".  The plot remains empty until the next time it is allocated (say next September).  The break off point is different around the country.  The idea of huge waiting lists is a myth in very many areas ascouncils do not have the time staff or budget to update those waiting.  I have recently been contacted to see if i still want an allotment.  I first applied 5 years ago and got one within a few months.  two years ago i took on and cleared a plot that had not been used for at least 17 years.  So these lists for some councils are incorrect.

What are the demographics age/sex of people that use the allotments? I don't know for our site as i have not seen everyone.  I don't think there are any younger than 40.

What are the busiest days at your allotment sites? Do you mean busy day as in day of the week or month or year?  When we go to the allotment can be affected by many factors (work, holidays, family, health and even need).  When i worked i was up very early on Saturdays and Sundays to go to the allotment.  My benefit was the relaxation.  Whatever i grew and took home to eat was a bonus.  The reasons for others vary but most usually depend on the time available.  I have noticed that 5 November is busy because someone has a bonfire night and everyone rushes to pile on their rubbish to burn (we are not allowed bonfires although 5 November appears to be an exception).

How often do you visit your plot? This depends on the season and what the weather is doing. It was twice to do catch up work with up to two other visits each week to harvest as required.  Now i am no longer working it could be more times but less time but it will still depend on the weather.

Does the idea of using modern technology appeal to you, ie: aquaponics / hyrdoponics if it were available at a community site at a reasonable cost? Modern tech does appeal to me but one man's reasonable is another man's economic disaster. Most of us try to do things on a shoe string and baulk at paying for a pallet.  If you look at this site you will find the inventive ways we all go to to save a penny.  This does not mean that we are cheapskates but we all realise that we all have a budget and some of us need more help than others.

Do you like the idea of a 'pick your own' shop - a farm shop in the city centre where you can pick fresh fruit, veg and herbs that are growing on hydroponic living walls right in front of you, you can see the food growing and actually cut what you want and pay for it.  Well i don't know about others on the site but this is the wrong question to ask.  Some would say there is no such time as fresh fruit or veg in a city centre (too much pollution).  You also used an unacceptable word; PAY.   Have you looked at "Bargins Galore" or "Top Tips" to delve into our thinking as allotmenteers?

I would suggest that the questions you have asked maybe better directed at "young professionals"and "young urban families".  It seems to me that the equipment required and the costing involved in your project may be higher than many of us would be preparted to consider, never mind pay.  Melbourne12 has made some very astute comments and they probably require a lot of thought.

there is no such thing as an easy question with an easy answer.  many others on this site may disagree with my comments.  We are all different.

I think you possibly may be trying to develop the idea of a vertical garden.  That will be ok for those that can afford it and have their own vertical surface.  Unfortunately for most humans money does not grow on trees.  If it did most humans would not be allowed anywhere near those trees.

Bill Door

Sorry but i have to take on a combine harvester soon and my head hurts.

[Ian Pearson]

This is such a complex subject. So in no particular order… I got a vision when I read your first post; I saw prefabricated retrofit allotment-balconies for bolting on to hi-rise towers. Just a through-away idea.
Then I got to thinking about the social side. Often one sees high profile veg growing schemes for some disadvantaged/minority group that usually involves the provision of queue-book gardening instant solutions such as expensive wheelchair compatible raised beds/disabled composting toilets etc etc. After an initial rosy period of publicity and backslapping, these often fall into disuse because the eligible minority group that gets rounded up to use it, is not really that interested after the press photographers have gone. The provision of super-duper facilities alone does not make a successful scheme.
Hydroponic techniques have some benefits for large scale commercial producers, but are very expensive to set up, and go horribly wrong if someone presses the wrong button/adds the wrong chemicals to the nutrient water. So again, the human factor needs to be well considered, and would involve technical training and food safety legislation. But personally, if I wanted veg that taste of water, I'd go to the supermarket, tho' the bulk of the population know no different.
Shared/cooperative schemes…these depend on a group of people with similar aims, objectives and ethics. I will say no more on that one, other than to point out that existing allotment sites comprise individual plots that all look different, and are managed differently, but there are still disputes over herbicide drift/spreading weed roots/shading each other/someone being 'untidy'/attracting rats/etc etc.
'Pick your own' has been used for soft fruit, which is easier to control, and waste crop is less of a loss. With veg, it is bad enough in the supermarket, where folk squeeze all the tomatoes before they pick one up. Also, they choose the best, and leave all the rubbish. With live plants, just like in the supermarket, someone has to be paid to remove all of the rejected/damaged/oversqueezed material.
Now that all seems a bit negative, so I should try to balance that. Allotments are only one type veg-growing land use; one where individual gardeners have individual plots. CSA (community supported agriculture) systems can work very well, and I think it would be worth examining them as a model. Also, modern city centre residents now expect to pay heavily for everything, including veg, so perhaps some kind of intensive 'serviced' veg growing service, or an expensive hi-tech allotment would be viable. Maybe I'm wrong, but I feel you are looking for a technology solution to the problem. It certainly seems to work for growing high value crops such as cannabis, so why not petit pois?

[electric landlady]

Hi Sophie

I answered your survey on your other thread but just wanted to let you know that there are actually some allotment sites within the ring road in Nottingham - I should know as I'm on one of them! It's true there aren't any right in the city centre, but then I'm not sure if there would be much demand for them there. Here's a link to a map showing where they all are: www.nottinghamcity.gov.uk/article/21992/Allotments

The ones nearest the city centre are quite easily accessed from there, especially Whitemoor which is right on the tram line. As far as I know, Notts city centre residents tend to be students (not around during the main growing season so probably not your ideal clientele for this) or young single professionals in flats...would be interesting to investigate whether there would be any demand amongst them for this sort of thing.

[sparrow]

Using plots all year round is hard on my site as some plots, including mine, get waterlogged/flooded. There's no point filling the plot with winter veg that will drown or if the paths are too slippy to get down till March. Having said that, I have 2 beds that work ok.

Our waiting list is about 5 years - 110 plots, about 7 come free per year. Busiest days are hard to state - we've a healthy mix of people who work full-time/part-time/not at all for various reasons. The demographic is 30s - 80s, so pretty broad and a fairly even 50/50 gender split. In summer 6-9pm is usually busy with everyone watering. :)

From March-October I go to the plot most days either before or after work and 2 half days on the weekend. I live in a flat and have a share of an 8ft north-facing balcony, where I grow my carrots (no fly!) and some salads.

Vertical gardens sound great, as others have suggested, but outside space is fairly limited. What about pursuing more roof gardens? There are plenty of flat roofs and some stunning examples in London. The roof doesn't always need to be reinforced, depending on what goes up there.

In terms of audience, I'd try the 3rd sector hubs rather than the private sector.