Topic: Cucumber seeds!,

[Duke Ellington]

I always grow small cucumbers. I picked up a packet of Thompson and Morgan Nimrod baby cucumber seeds £2.99. I opened the little envelope to find four seeds in the pack😱😱😱. I think i will go back to buying Lidl seeds!!😐

Duke

[Paulh]

The T&M web site states four seeds in the packet. If they all grow and fruit well, you'll get some money's worth.

[Beersmith]

Now that is expensive!!

New varieties, especially new F1 varieties have often been expensive for not many seeds.  But the challenge for allotment holders is working out if it is worth paying the extra.  I will readily admit to paying for F1 hybrid tomatoes where you might only get a dozen or half a dozen seeds for reasons of flavour (Sungold) or blight resistance (Mountain Magic).

At the other extreme, getting 2000 little gem lettuce seeds for 99 pence seems bizarre to me.  That would last me at least 20 years.  The seeds would no longer be viable long before I'd used half of them.

I find the real challenge is identifying good value for money. For outdoor cucumbers it is very difficult to imagine what could beat Marketmore which grows well, tastes great and you can get fifty seeds for a couple of quid.

What is annoying is not really the price itself for one individual purchase but that the learning curve is so long and in total so expensive. There are numerous varieties that I have considered trying but it is a risk if you have a regular favourite and you get a failure with your new test. After years of experience I have settled on a range of favoured varieties, many of which are inexpensive open types. For example, Boltardy beetroot are hard to beat and cheap as chips. But I also buy a range of mid priced varieties for beans, peas and some brassicas.

But for someone with less experience it must be a nightmare and a potentially very expensive one at that.  Most seasons I have a bit of a punt on some novelty or new variety.  If it turns out to be an expensive blunder I put it down to experience and move on.  Perhaps this forum should have a thread on our experiences with new varieties where we could pool our knowledge. We could make it a sticky thread and later this year you could report on your experiences with Nimrod.  Hmmmm!

[Beersmith]

I always grow small cucumbers. I picked up a packet of Thompson and Morgan Nimrod baby cucumber seeds £2.99. I opened the little envelope to find four seeds in the pack😱😱😱. I think i will go back to buying Lidl seeds!!😐

Duke

Actually you could help everyone if you could find a nearby plot holder who would give you just a single Marketmore seed as a benchmark.  It would be a very generous thing for you to do but you could help everyone if you grew both and found Nimrod to be better in growth productivity and flavour, or perhaps no better at all. That would be illuminating!

[Tiny Clanger]

I always used to grow Swing variety. 4 seeds is the norm there too. Don't know if bigger cucumbers give more seeds per pack. I purchased a packet of strawberry seeds early in the year. There were only 4 seeds there too.

[JanG]

Marketmore is indeed a very good variety. And it’s very easy to save seeds from it and never have to buy a single seed again.
I’ve also saved seeds from La Diva which I believe is an F1 variety but with smoother skin. I’m no longer sure whether the cucumbers I grow have more Marketmore or more La Diva in them but they are excellent every year and by selection now have the smooth skin of La Diva.

I’d be interested to know what improvements the more expensive cucumbers at 75p per seed are supposed to offer. I agree with Beersmith that a comparison would be illuminating.

[Paulh]

I grow "Burpless Tasty Green" which was clearly named before the marketing team got involved. It's a F1, ten seeds for £2.99, which I can use over two seasons. It worked better for me than "Marketmore" had, so I've stuck with it. The disadvantage of it being a F1 is that all the plants fruit at the same time, so I then I have as many cucumbers as courgettes to give away.

[Deb P]

F1 Cucumbers packets are notorious for being stingy numbers of seeds….I buy Real Seeds and Franchi who are much more generous with their seed numbers!

[Beersmith]

I'm really enjoying this discussion.

I find the variation in peoples' judgement about price versus value really fascinating.  Almost everything we purchase comes with quality ranges from cheap and cheerful,  standard quality and price and expensive but premium quality.

I think I was incorrect to suggest Marketmore was best value for money among cucumbers.  Good - yes, but there are, no doubt, better varieties and if you judge they are worth paying more for only a few seeds you are not wrong.  You simply have a different assessment of best value for money.

The end result is market differentiation. And long may it continue.  The incentive to research new crosses and varieties would disappear if we all stuck resolutely to the old standard varieties. 

I am very appreciative of the improvements that have occurred especially for tomato and celeriac seeds.  For the former flavour in particular is very important for many consumers and some modern varieties have delivered and for the latter, size and yield is markedly better for modern F1 types than the older standard types.  Good grief. Go back long enough and I can remember when Moneymaker was popular.

Even better, as a group consumers are rarely fooled, especially in the long term. New varieties claiming staggering improvement in quality, disease resistance , yield and flavour will not become established and popular if they do not deliver on those claims.

[JanG]

You have more faith in the marketing process, Beersmith, than I do. I have the impression that in many cases the staggering improvements offered attract purchasers in the short term simply by skilful and seductive marketing. When that variety disappoints, the next alluring variety is offered with similar promises.
I agree that the F1 variety, Sungold, is widely loved and has stood the test of time but many of the best tomato improvements have come from small scale breeders such as Brad Gates and Tom Wagner in US and Gourmet Genetics in England, and they certainly don’t charge a lot for their seeds and certainly seem not to be motivated by market forces.
Celeriac I can’t speak for but I must admit that I enjoy growing F1 varieties of cauliflower and brussel sprouts, though even there I’ve had some good results with older, open pollinated varieties.

[Paulh]

And you have more faith in the consumer than I do!

I'm always surprised that my fellow plot holders don't know the varieties that they grow (which I'd like to know as they are doing better than mine are). Fair enough, if they've got a list at home and can't bring the name to mind, but more often it's that it's one  found at the garden centre and the packet or label is thrown away. How can that affect the choice made next season?

[Beersmith]

You have more faith in the marketing process, Beersmith, than I do.

Well it is imperfect and sometimes inefficient.  But given time it does progress.  Take gourmet genetics.  Now taken over by King's seeds, several of the excellent varieties they developed are now getting popular and are almost mainstream. Sweet aperatif has an RHS  award of gardening merit and is sold by many seed merchants at about £2 or £3 for 10 seeds, which seems fair and I don't begrudge them being rewarded for their innovation.

I'm not a big fan of capitalism but when it genuinely tries to improve or innovate it can produce huge benefits.  The bit I hate is when it stops innovating and investing and tries to make bigger profits by reducing wages or lobbying government to reduce environmental standards and regulations.  Good discussion!

[BarriedaleNick]

My goto cucumber that I thought gave good value for money as well as being a great producer was La Diva. 
You can pick up 30 seeds for a quid at premier seeds which for an F1 is not bad at all. 

https://www.premierseedsdirect.com/product/cucumber-la-diva-f1/

However here I can pick up seedlings for 20 cents and I can't order from Premier seeds any more so sometimes I figure it isn't worth spending money on seeds..

[Vinlander]

My goto cucumber that I thought gave good value for money as well as being a great producer was La Diva. 
You can pick up 30 seeds for a quid at premier seeds which for an F1 is not bad at all. 

https://www.premierseedsdirect.com/product/cucumber-la-diva-f1/

However here I can pick up seedlings for 20 cents and I can't order from Premier seeds any more so sometimes I figure it isn't worth spending money on seeds..

I agree with everything here - especially that you need to check the price of seedlings NOW before you even think of buying & sowing seeds - especially Cucumber & Tomato. Our local garden centre is pretty expensive - with F1 Passandra plants (4 & a bit true leaves) at £2 each right now - but still a much better deal than £2.99 for 4 seeds of a variety you haven't yet learned to love - and ones that might not ever catch up with those £2 seedlings.

I agree with most of this thread but I'm a bit grumpy (again) so I have to say the idea of "you get what you pay for" ranges from naive to downright wrong.

The retail price of everything is always banging on the ceiling of what the market will bear - very little to do with quality - and frequently actually in inverse proportion. People who care about their craft tend to lean towards providing a service, but the bigger the company the more likely it is to go rogue - like turpitude & morgoth.

OTOH "There's No Such Thing As A Free Lunch" is absolutely true - but the logically consistent equivalent for retail is "You Don't Get What you Don't Pay For".

Cheers.

[JanG]

I agree with everything here - especially that you need to check the price of seedlings NOW before you even think of buying & sowing seeds -

The trouble is that this leaves out of count that for some of us that growing from seed is one of the greatest pleasures in growing food.

[JanG]

I don’t seem to have worked out the knack of quoting. Apologies to Vinlander for adding my comment within the quotation box.

[Vinlander]

The trouble is that this leaves out of count that for some of us that growing from seed is one of the greatest pleasures in growing food.

I'm sowing a shedload (literally) of seeds that are too weird to be available as plants - so I'm not short of that challenge & happy to spend a reasonable amount on the few plants that cut corners.

The work of labelling up a mere 4 dozen tiny pepper seedlings is no joke when there are 3-6 varieties to be distinguished - that job alone dilutes my satisfaction quotient somewhat, and then there's the 2 species of sweet Physalis that can't be bought, & the oca, pea tubers & yacon that need to be chitted & split up.

I'm especially keen to evade sowing tomatoes - I'm really happy to be able to buy Sungold, Gardeners Delight and (very recently) various versions of the Green Tiger family that I used to sow - the "Artisan" variant has the family flavour with an added creamy taste I really value - & I'm pretty sure that the excellent "Shimmer" is a close relative.

Of course it would be crazy to buy 20 plants when it's so easy to get ~5 free plants from each bought one by rooting unwanted axil sprouts that would otherwise end up in the compost (& also carry most of the maturity of the parent/donor to their fruiting date).

It's also possible to graft F1 cucumber cuttings onto figleaf gourd seedlings - but it's such a faff - & only pays off in a bad season. I buy maybe 3 F1 plants a year and grow Xtal Lemon seeds for my basic needs (harvested very green and spiny for that fabulous cornichon taste)

I think anyone who pays retail prices for bean plants probably needs their head examining, and the same goes for sweetcorn and just about anything that can be sown now, but I must admit I'd be tempted by a sensible price on a tray of golden beet.

Cheers.

PS. I've no problem with rare unintentional (but well intentioned) additions to "my" quotes.  I'd also hope that eg. a hymn to our current stultocrats would be too obviously out of character for me...

[JanG]

I do agree that finding space and time for the huge range of possible seedlings and caring for chitting tubers etc can be a considerable task around this time of year but hey, I find it irresistible every season!

I’m interested to know more about the pea tubers you mention, Vinlander. Can you elaborate?

PS. Great to be introduced to the concept of stultocracy. Your postings are always informative, and sometimes in unexpected ways.

[Vinlander]

I’m interested to know more about the pea tubers you mention, Vinlander. Can you elaborate?

The wiki page for Lathyrus tuberosus is useful but a bit dry - it doesn't mention any specific way to grow it (a trench lined with landscape membrane, since the tubers can be 30cm from the nearest shoot), or that many consider it the best substitute for sweet chestnuts (every other other sub. I've tried was useless - a few people like apios but mine was awful & I've no idea how to get the right one - if it actually exists).

I think I found the trick for L.tub almost by accident. 10-15 years ago I was using builders' bags to grow red & purple carrots up to a metre above soil level (because they seem to be the carrot flies' favourite target on my plot, while almost ignoring yellow ones).

I'd filled the bags by using them as compost heaps - but so much turf and tussock was in there that the grass was still sprouting - so decided to put a 20-30cm thick layer of 2yr old woodchip on top (my paths are trenches filled with the free deliveries of chip  - which needs to be replaced before the 3rd winter turns it into wooden quicksand).

The carrots I sowed in there grew well in normal years (and the clay in the turves provides that extra flavour) but they need a lot of watering in dry years, and then the bags tore because of UV and I'm still trying to collect replacements.

However I thought the south edge of the bags would be perfect for L.tub, and they scrambled down without shading the carrots.

The tubers I got from the chip were almost twice as long as usual - they were certainly well over double the weight and were also smoother with pale brown skins that made them very easy to clean.

Since then I've had similar results using the bags for other half-feral crops that like light soil but aren't expecting masses of nutrients eg. the evilly thorny but 100% blight-proof Litchi Tomato grew twice the usual height.

I really need to set up a new bag for oca (which should be happier away from the things that drill it).

Put nominate into the A4A search box and you will find "Nominate unusual and challenging crops that are well worth the effort?" - well worth clicking the title & reading all 3 pages (though my own posts are riddled with ambiguities).

Cheers.

PS. We're stuck with Television (I like the Icelandic "picture-thrower") but Stultocracy isn't in general use & I'd prefer people to choose a non-hybrid -  ilíthiocracy seems OK (certainly better than stultimperium).

PPS. I don't believe that anyone (except fashion victims) can actually prefer polenta to all the alternative stodges - unless they were weaned on it from birth - but in Sardinia some polenta is made from sweet chestnut - I'd really like to go back and find it fresh (to compare it with L.t mash, which is pretty good - though Skirret is even better - I must try mixing them).

[JanG]

Lathyrus tuberosus sounds a fascinating plant - and pretty too. Is the advantage of growing it in a membrane trench or builders’ bag that it spreads invasively or simply that it’s easier to harvest the tubers that way? Did you start from seed, Vinlander, or from tubers? I haven’t checked availability.

I like your method of growing purple and red carrots. I have a thing this season about purple and red carrots and I’m trying six different varieties. Interesting that they’re targeted by rootfly. I have mine covered by fine mesh so hope that will do the trick, but a builders’ bag is an interesting possibility.

I’m also impressed by the vigour of certain plants grown in woodchip. Last season a winter squash seed germinated here in a bay of quite fresh woodchip and, with only the wood chip to nourish it, showed huge vigour, growing over all its surroundings, including the roof behind it. Excellent squash produced too.

An enjoyable discussion but rather far away from the topic heading. Does this breach forum guidelines or is it acceptable to wander a little?