Topic: The Kale Place.. a spot to share about the phenominal types of kale!!

[Jeannine]

   As I have always been interested in kales and there is quite a bit of mystery about names, types etc I though it may be useful for me to start a collection of varieties names, what family they belong to and hopefully their background especially the older ones. I intended  to include the perennials which are sometimes called cabbage but are often thought of as kales. Wow what a lot of info I have found. this is not going to be an easy task.. so what do you folks think is it worth doing here? .. Could it prove useful.? Could I get your kale info too ? What is everyone growing ? Is anyone swapping? What would you not  grow / grow again and why ?  You get the idea.. What do you all think?

There is so much info around for beans, peas and tomatoes  but not so much kale , it is scattered all over the net.

 Kales I personally have seeds for are.
"
My Red Russian. it has changed in my gardens over the years so probably a cross so doubtful if pure
Red Russian an unopen commercial packet AKA Rugged Jack.AKA Canadian Brocolli
Lacinato..
Western Front
Daubenton's
Hungry Gap
Yates Blue Curled Scotch
Pentland Brig
Russian Frills
Lark's Tongue
Tronchuda.. aka Portugese  Kale
Sutherland
Red Ursa
Paul and Becky's Asurian tree Cabbage
Madeley
Eewig Moes
Delaway Cabbage


In my garden from last year I am eating My Red Russian and Lacinato ,(including the flower shoots.)  My Red Russian has toppled over and rooted itself, usually I pull it out but am tempted to leave it.

Some of interesting sounding ones on the net I found are.
Rainbow Lacinato ( getting this one) it is a cross of Lacinato and Redbor
Kale Storm which is 4 varieties of kale enclosed in a pellet,
Spis Bladene   (I want this one, )
Thousand Head
Lots of different Scots and same with Siberian and Red Russians,
Greenpeace ( a variegated one).
Variegated Daubentons
Taunton.

So there is a good start, I haven't put them all on .

XX Jeannine

 I look forward to hearing your growing stories etc etc.

[galina]

Here I grow Daubenton, Variegated Daubenton and Taunton Dean Daubenton.  Taunton Dean has started to grow again and we have harvested some leaves and shoots.

Grandpa Maycock's collards - Grandpa Maycock was a Victorian Clergyman who let any number of brassica cross in his garden, then selected for longevity - a very mixed bunch intentionally - lots of nice shoots and flowering buds, some like PSB.  They go on for 3 years plus.  We are yet to harvest much, the weather has been too cold.  But they are coming on now.  There is sign of new growth.
 
My white flowering mystery kale.  Looked at Westphalian on www and it is yellow flowered, looked at Spis Bladene and the leaves don't look right, so it isn't either of those.  This one has produced broccoli type flower shoots for months, we are now on the side shoots and it is still growing strong.

Looking at your list, I haven't even scratched the surface yet, Jeannine     

[galina]

Some interesting kales here:

http://www.rareseeds.com/store/vegetables/kale/
http://store.irishseedsavers.ie/Cabbage_s/63.htm
http://www.realseeds.co.uk/kale.html

[Duke Ellington]

Can Daubenton Kale be grown in a large container?

[Jayb]

I've had a bit of a breakdown growing kale the last couple of years, but then my gardening has been very haphazard and getting things sown/planted hasn't always been possible.

I'm starting from fresh this year and my plan is to grow several different types, so far I've sown, East Friesian Palm Kale, Daubenton, Western Front, Russian Frills, Extremist Agreements and I think Paul and Becky's Asturian Tree Cabbage. Usually I'd plant them along with the other brassicas and net them all, but I'm not going to have enough space for all of these. Think I'm going to need a new plan!

Can Daubenton Kale be grown in a large container?

I've not tried it but I don't see why not?  They get quite leafy big, but as long as the pot is large enough and has enough weight to stop it toppling over in the wind.

[tricia]

I like kale but seldom eat it because I don't have room in my small raised beds to grow brassicas and to buy it bagged at the supermarket most of it would get wasted. As a one person household it would mean eating kale for days on end. My freezers are still full of fruit and veg from last year - I really must stop buying fresh stuff!

The idea of planting in a large container appeals to me. Could someone let me have a couple of seeds of a perennial kale please? I'll pay postage or send a s.a.e.

Tricia 

[Jeannine]

Tricia, I find I really don't eat as much of it when it first grows, but after the winter, like now for instance it really comes into it's own. My feeling would be to grow one of varieties of Red Russian, as the leaves are delicate and frilly, you can eat them raw or cooked, I jus graze on them in the garden. The Scots kales are heavier leaves . The Lacianto one is more stiff, think of it more like a cos lettuce  and the Russian as a butterhead..not exact but it explains it a bit.

I can't help you with seeds of a perennial one, I only have a very few left from my HSL packet of a few years ago and don't know if I can get more but there are folks over there that probably could give you a cutting which is the best way to propagate them anyway.

I could send you seeds of some non perennial ones though if you would like them.

XX Jeannine

[Jeannine]

I have a question about the Daubentons.

I know some of you have all three of the varieties and you usually got them from cuttings which I can't do.

I got seeds from HSL a few years ago and they grew well but I had to leave the garden they were in. I have sown some more from the same packet and they have germinated but... I have read somewhere that the HSL seeds are not true to type. The plant rarely sets seeds so I was surprised to see them but now I am concerned that the plants I am  growing are not typical of the ones you all got from transplants.

Does anyone have any info they can share please.

XX Jeannine

[Hector]

Jeannine
I don't have any knowledge regards what you are asking but this might be interesting to you. (May 2015 post)
https://scottishforestgarden.wordpress.com/category/log/

[Robert_Brenchley]

The HSL seeds are definitely crossed. I had one flower last year, and it died, while Daubenton's sails through. I still have it, and it's a decent kale, but it needs a bit more breeding.

In the garden, I have:

Green Daubenton's
Variegated Daubenton's
Taunton Deane
Tree Collard x Daubenton's (a right triffid; the leaves are tasteless and coarser than Daubenton's; apparently tree kales are used to make sauerkraut)
Various broccoli x Dorbentons (so far they look like typical broccoli; the test will be whether they survive flowering)
Sutherland Kale (an odd plant which survived flowering)
Thousand-Headed Kale (ditto).

There are a lot more in the freezer but I don't have a list.

[galina]

By definition Daubentons from seed are a bit suspect because they don't flower.  Some say they flower in their third year, but not here.  I have also heard that people are growing them in their seventh year, they are of huge size and still no flowers.  Therefore it isn't quite certain what flowered at HSL.

But it may just not matter.  Because if you get a good-textured and tasty long-lived kale out of it that will do 3 or more years, does it matter whether it is exactly alike one of the Daubentons?

Maybe their seed is more like the Grandpa Maycock's 'collards' (kale type plants).  And will give you long-lived plants. 

I have a question about the Daubentons.

I know some of you have all three of the varieties and you usually got them from cuttings which I can't do.

I got seeds from HSL a few years ago and they grew well but I had to leave the garden they were in. I have sown some more from the same packet and they have germinated but... I have read somewhere that the HSL seeds are not true to type. The plant rarely sets seeds so I was surprised to see them but now I am concerned that the plants I am  growing are not typical of the ones you all got from transplants.

Does anyone have any info they can share please.

XX Jeannine

[Jeannine]

Thank you all, I knew you would come through.

You are right, for me if I get the long life and it tastes good I really am not so concerned about it's purity unless I offered seeds to someone else.

Robert, gosh do you have all those seeds in your freezer. I am confused. If they don't flower ??? Maybe I am misunderstanding here.

My words look garbled..LOL

XX Jeannine

[galina]

Daubentons are too large for a container.  The problem with any perennial kale is that it grows bigger for as long as it lives.  Small and growing for years is not quite compatible. 

Kale leaves freeze well, no need to throw out. 

[Digeroo]

I am also not sure what flowered at HSL.  Some of them turned out to be cauliflowers! Though it was the best tasting cauliflower ever, old fashioned cauliflower taste.  The rest not perennial and have died off.

For me only the variegated variety has proved perennial.  I have managed to root cuttings but think it will need to be down annually, the original plants are now rather poor and leggy.

I love Russian kale, I eat it like purple sprouting, so leave it to get a flower head. 

There are some smaller types than pentland brig.

[Jeannine]

Galina, many of the tubs I will be using are large, they are all 28: deep by 24 inched wide, then they come in 4 lengths, 30", 36" 42" 48" I was hoping to put perennial veggies in them to save the space in my raised beds for things I could rotate.  Do you think  these rectangle tubs would still be too small. I thought of 1 plant in the smallest one and 2 in the 48" one.

XX Jeannine

[Robert_Brenchley]

Daubenton's will flower occasionally - I'd be very surprised if there's any rule to it - but I've yet to get seed off any 'proper' ones. The ones I've mentioned are all on the plot. I've got loads of seed in the freezer, but I've never made a list. Daubenton's and Taunton Deane are definitely not there!

[Jeannine]

Fir Galina, that flower has bloomed an there is no doubt it is yellow...sorry XX Jeannine

While I am here I am trying to find a kale for my mini garden. Does anyone know a low growing, must be less than 18 inches and I don't want a Scotch one. I would rather have a Ursa type, Russian, I am not so keen on the flavor of the Scots. All the varieties I have grow too tall.

Thank you Jeanninr

[galina]

Thank you for letting one of your shoots progress and for the flower colour report Jeannine,  similar leaves but it isn't Lacinato.  It's like detective work - everything ex-cluded narrows down what is still in-cluded.   

No, those sort of  c o n t a i n e r s  are definitely big enough Jeannine, they are huge and won't topple over either.

[Jeannine]

Good, that means I don't have to waste precious garden area for my perennials.

Thanks for the info Robert, I kinda expected it wouldn't be the same, but I can watch it and it might be OK for my purposes.

[galina]

I think I know what the mystery kale may be.  Sorry I don't remember who it was (thank you!) who said Portuguese varieties flower white.  I parked that nugget of info in my brain at the time. 

Did a spot of tidying and found an old empty seed packet - from HSL - 'Cabbage Portuguese'.  Now I would not call this huge plant a cabbage, it is entirely loose-leaf, but this is about the only packet I could match the mystery kale to.  Tentatively I think it must be 'Cabbage Portuguese'   

Pictures show the kale and a 'branch' of the kale where I haven't been picking the shoots because I wanted to show the flower colour.

I found in the 2012 HSL catalogue Portuguese Cabbage, but had not got it as any of my choices.  Described as tall plant with dark, loose leaves. Guess it must have been my 'lucky dip'.  Lucky indeed!  As I have only the one plant I will be taking cuttings, don't want to lose this one.