Topic: Smallholdings - Status and Regualtions

[BarriedaleNick]

My wife and I have often thought of selling up and bagging a smallholding somewhere down South or South-West . We were talking the other day and realised that we didn't really know what a smallholding is defined as. 

Do they have some sort of legal status - do you have to register a smallholding?  Can I just buy a house with a bit of land and set it up like a smallholding.  What would be the difference?

[goodlife]

As far as I know...and this is just a personal 'hunch'....you are not required to register as such if you are only growing for your own needs as such...should you start keeping four legged farm animals, then you have to register your place 'as small holding' with Defra (?) to get hold of your individual farm number for tags etc.
I suppose it all depends what you doing with the land...

end of this page there is good list of things that you get involved with the small holding, it might give you some more ideas... http://www.cla.org.uk/why-join-cla/benefits/are-you-smallholder

[goodlife]

...and I came across these pages.. http://www.smallholder.co.uk/news/927599.registering_a_holding/ http://www.countrysmallholding.com/the-good-life-the-next-stage--211825

This is something I've been day dreaming for a long while..and every now and then I have a 'peek behind the curtains' what would it involve 'if we ever...'

I'm slowly giving up the possibility of it...but one can still dream...

[BarriedaleNick]

Cheers Goodlife - I think I need a change of scene/job or something and I'd like to be a self sufficient as possible but of course money is the key.
I am just looking into it now so that when the time comes I have all I need to know!

[goodlife]

Code: [Select]

of course money is the key.
That is the stumbling block for us...we are just about paid our mortgage...and changing the life style totally would involve borrowing the money again...not quite the ideal situation when one dreams with 'self sufficiency'..
And we are not getting any younger neither... Ideally we should be thinking of the 'big change' now that we are in such a age that all the work involved would be physically possible.
Looking at all the different paper works that is involved with farming (and smallholding too)..registering this, insuring that..commitment for 'everything'.. idea of rural bliss is starting to wear thin
Farming is just full of legislations and paperwork.. ..surely it should be other way round...

[BarriedaleNick]

Yes I was thinking the same thing - lots of regulations and form filling. I guess I am lucky enough to be where I am but at times London drives me mad.  At least we are almost mortgage free and not quite 50 yet (1 year to go) so we could just downsize somewhere with a bit of land and keep some chickens.  Then I'd probably get bored and want to come back to London.

If I could pluck up the courage to leave for France or Spain then no worries, places are cheap, but we both have elderly families and don't want to be that far away..

[ancellsfarmer]

Oh for the peasant life!  Sadly the reality is that you either need to win a lottery, "liberate" a bank vault or inherit from aunty to achieve the ability to step "off grid"
When you analyse the inputs to a civilised existence, a decent standard of living, transport, holidays, council tax etc, its not easy to fund this from any form of agriculture on the scale one suggests. I understand that in UK , a holding in excess of 650 acres is required to support a family of four.
Now if you wish to forgo the frills of life and become a "peasant", just make sure that you leave the rose tinted specs behind and look real close at the east european model, or the back woods of Portugal and try it for a year. There ought to be a swap-shop . Any offers?

[goodlife]

When you analyse the inputs to a civilised existence, a decent standard of living, transport, holidays, council tax etc, its not easy to fund this from any form of agriculture on the scale one suggests. I understand that in UK , a holding in excess of 650 acres is required to support a family of four.

Hmm..in my 'scale of civilized existence' and having 'decent standard of living'...holidays are not something that one necessary needs. The full scale self sufficiency might be different thing, but is there anybody out there that are truly so..we are always dependend of something that others make. If we only talking it in scale as I dabble it now..and maybe taking it to next level with teeny bit more land and odd animal or more chickens than I normally keep.
I can now produce most of our needs for fruit and veg in 1/4 of an acre and that  leaves some goodies to give/swap away, but lacking space of where to store it all means that I don't need to be too efficient with the production neither, I could grow more too.
 I can't talk about Nicks ideal world..but my view of rural ideal is about supporting one self as much as possible..no frills...relatively simple...like my gran parents used to live, they brought up 9 children..they never were rich but nor truly poor neither.
It is darn hard work  and no manner of rose tinted glasses will hide it way..even for me as child on my grandparents place (very small smallholding) it was totally clear where priorities lie...work first and fun later..and if me and my cousins were naughty, punishment was to go and do X-amount of weeding amongst carrot rows...those were proper working holidays, nobody didn't mind, it was just fact and part of what you went there for...I LOVED  it They didn't fully live off from land and some income came from seasonal jobs...which is not far off what I do now. Holiday's are just necessary 'evil'..too much work involved for having one and so much to catch up when you come back..I would gladly give up with them but I do have to have one each year...just to go and see family back in 'home'.
I ain't after 'Dutchy estate' but dream of something very modest...what I have now with added couple of acres would 'do'..but not fancying starting over with mortgage again is that step too far for us.

[BarriedaleNick]

I guess one could try to combine it with some sort of income from a B&B, small campsite or similar - we all need some sort of income after all. 
My ideal is too lead a simple healthy life.  Recent issues I have had have made me realise that I stress too much, drink too much and don't live in the here and now - always worrying about work etc.  I'd like to spend more time with my wife and produce as much of my own grub as possible.

[ancellsfarmer]

I too would like this way of life, I ,too, have wished to step off the treadmill that is the reality of many lives today. The problem , it seems to me, is that its difficult to justify to wife and family that its in their interest too. The hobby farm addition to the 9-5 commute is a valid escape that is after all, the logical extension to an allotment or plot. I wrote when I read the post regarding smallholdings was the OPs intention. Perhaps ,wrongly, I saw that as his professional intention and from the experience of extended family, and friends, I felt the need to alert to reality.Farming is a great way of life but an uncertain way to make your living.
The Uk all farm -profit/income for 2012 was £71.00 per acre (average) and 35% of the wealth generated by this activity(source :Savills)
With the average agricultural land price of £6882 per acre (source: Knight Frank), small plots achieving 300% regularly, and growing in price @11% p.a 2013, it would be a "somewhat speculative adventure" as my onetime Bank manager repeated stressed.

[Alipip]

We have a 58 acre small holding - we have stables there which we rent, make hay from the majority of it to sell and also breed rare breed pigs to sell as weaners or meat, as well as some chickens for egg production. I have my allotment on a site as the farm is not the place for trying to grow veg due to rabbit problems.
In no way is it an easy life. We do not have holidays, we live a simple kind of life. I have to work to support us, the smallholding will never be enough. My husband works every single day of the year on the farm, and my days off are taken with allotment, family commitments (elderly mum or grandchildren) and of course the animals.
The amount of paperwork is ridiculous - you can do nothing without the proper forms, then of course the accounts.
It is seen as an ideal life, but in reality although the animals give us so much love and enjoyment, and sometimes driving a tractor around doing work can be good (although if someone on a footpath sees it is a woman driving they tend to move pretty quick ) it is very tough.

[BarriedaleNick]

Thanks for the reply Alipip. I guess I am just having one of those times when you think there has to be a better way of living than going to work for someone else everyday and sitting in front of a screen pressing buttons.  I admire your commitment - I am not sure I could match it.

[goodlife]

Good to hear from one that is living it.. It truly is a commitment and you both must want it to it work.
yes...the paperwork thing...sound like it is as I feared it would be...one issue that is most off putting for me..

Have you been on smallholding for long? Has it been as you imagined it to be? 

[Alipip]

We have had it for nearly 6 years now - we don't live there as the landlady we rent from lives in the bungalow next to it, and you can't get any planning permission for another residential building.
I thought I knew what I was letting myself in for. The farmer who had it before us used to go away a lot and hubby and I would farm sit.  He had pigs, cows, chickens and sheep. In reality though it was 2 or 3 weeks, and friends were always willing to come and help especially if there were lambs that had to be bottle fed.
I honestly didn't realize how hard it would be. Defra is a nightmare, form upon form. The local council also prove to be a pain. You have to have a cph number, (county parish holding) and for the pigs a herd number. Pig movement licences have to be done when pigs are taken away or brought onto site. If you bring one on site you are then on 28 day shutdown, no animal can be taken off site - the only exception being for slaughter. Chickens which I thought would be an easy option are often a pain. They are totally free range and have the run of the yard. Great until you take a tractor round the back of the yard and they sit in the roadway with the look of 'I was here before you, so I am not moving' on their faces. One of the sows will only do anything for me and plays hubby up something chronic.
If someone asked me would I give it all up though, I don't know. Financially it will never be enough to support us, even with our very small mortgage and low outgoings. Hubby would definitely struggle more than me. He has always worked on farms and loves the outdoors.
For anyone who seriously does want to try though, would say give it a go. Just be prepared for a whole lot of hard work and heartache.

[BarriedaleNick]

Thanks for expanding on that - I guess my rural dream will probably remain just that. 
There has to be a middle way - just a bit more land and a few chickens and ducks would be great but you cant get around the fact that we need to earn a living unless as ancellsfarmer puts it - we win the lottery (and I don't do the lottery)

Midlife crisis anyone?

[Alipip]

Mmmmmm, lottery win would be good - and I do it!!!! Just been up the farm and my favourite sow is due to give birth very soon. She is bagging up and looking big!!! That means she will have to have her wormer jab in the next day or so - should have been last week really but I was ill and hubby will no way do the injections. It means playing musical pens as we call it - there is one pen for the sows to give birth with a creche in the corner with a heat lamp and bars around the bottom so the piglets can run if mum rolls over towards them. Also has a radio playing in it non stop so the sow doesn't feel alone. Pig midwife is my job of course. Fancy helping????

[goodlife]

Thanks for expanding on that - I guess my rural dream will probably remain just that. 
There has to be a middle way - just a bit more land and a few chickens and ducks would be great but you cant get around the fact that we need to earn a living unless as ancellsfarmer puts it - we win the lottery (and I don't do the lottery)

Midlife crisis anyone?

I don't think I'm on quite crisis point yet but feeling little itch towards it...
In mean while I remedy that itch with new chicks that due to hatch next 10 days or so... It is all waiting game and then the yard is back to its normal state again...girls (and quite likely some boys too) in their pen...dog going bonkers and trying to tell them off... They will soon learn to live together..one way or another..

[goodlife]

Mmmmmm, lottery win would be good - and I do it!!!! Just been up the farm and my favourite sow is due to give birth very soon. She is bagging up and looking big!!! That means she will have to have her wormer jab in the next day or so - should have been last week really but I was ill and hubby will no way do the injections. It means playing musical pens as we call it - there is one pen for the sows to give birth with a creche in the corner with a heat lamp and bars around the bottom so the piglets can run if mum rolls over towards them. Also has a radio playing in it non stop so the sow doesn't feel alone. Pig midwife is my job of course. Fancy helping????

Awww....would love to help...though I'm sucker for animals and would feel hard not to slip one in my pocket...

[Ian Pearson]

Well dreamers, if you're gonna do it, the time is when that mortgage is paid off. Suddenly the house is all yours to do with as you wish, and downsizing means cash left over in the bank. It worked for me, now with 10 acres.

[BarriedaleNick]

Well dreamers, if you're gonna do it, the time is when that mortgage is paid off. Suddenly the house is all yours to do with as you wish, and downsizing means cash left over in the bank. It worked for me, now with 10 acres.

Where are you Ian and what sort of setup have you got now - if you don't mind me asking?