Topic: Looking skyward.

[digmore]

Is there a god? and if so plz allow him to give me strength.

Beggars belief, why do some people enjoy screwing themselves. We have been issued new tenancy agreements in the St Helens Borough as previously posted.

Today, two people who are shall we say repeat offenders re. bad plots etc. on our site, came to me and said I think I have found away round these new rules.

As posted earlier, the new rules are fair and open, no issues at all with them.

Look I said, the rules are fine, you signed upto them having read them, why now are you and only you trying to break them. If you did not like them, why sign up to them. If you dont like them leave. We have a waiting list.

Reply, well I was only saying. Well say it somewhere else I am busy sorting my plot out, I suggest you do the same to yours.

Have developed a short fuse lately, plz. give me strength.

Digmore. 

[Bill Door]

Yes Digmore I can understand your frustration.  There is always someone with a coach and horses waiting to drive through any new rule/instruction.  It is like when there is a problem to be resolved some people just get on with it.  Others spend loads of time trying to work out a short cut.  They usually spend more than double the time it would have been spent had they just got on with it.

Human nature I am afraid.

However, if you want any "fun" out of it think of the most absurd suggestion to make and give it to them right between the eyes.  Then stand back and wait.

Enjoy your gardening

Bill

P.S there is no proof that there is a god but people spend so much time trying to convince others that they "know" him.

[Unwashed]

Is there a god? and if so plz allow him to give me strength.

Beggars belief, why do some people enjoy screwing themselves. We have been issued new tenancy agreements in the St Helens Borough as previously posted.

Today, two people who are shall we say repeat offenders re. bad plots etc. on our site, came to me and said I think I have found away round these new rules.

As posted earlier, the new rules are fair and open, no issues at all with them.

Look I said, the rules are fine, you signed upto them having read them, why now are you and only you trying to break them. If you did not like them, why sign up to them. If you dont like them leave. We have a waiting list.

Reply, well I was only saying. Well say it somewhere else I am busy sorting my plot out, I suggest you do the same to yours.

Have developed a short fuse lately, plz. give me strength.

Digmore. 

Digmore, it's time you sod down from your role.  Allotmenteers have plots for a bit of peace and quiet, and if you can't understand that and show them some consideration you've lost the plot.  The contempt you show for your tenants is very poor.

You say "As posted earlier, the new rules are fair and open, no issues at all with them." - so show us these 28 pages of rules and regulations and let us decide for ourselves whether there are any issues.

[digmore]

Unwashed, as always your opinion is highly regarded, being called a sod is the mildest of things I have been called over the years. lol.

Allotmenteers have allotments because of the Allotment Act, and as such are bound by its tenets. Too many tenants have chosen to disregard the contents of the act and the local authority rules that go with it. That is why the allotment movement is in such a poor state, and councils would rather sell their sites off rather than maintain them because of the mess the sites have been made into by some of its tenants.

Lets be frank about this, the tenant is responsible for his/her plot, if its a mess, they did it, no one else. To much time has been  allocated to pandering to the whims of the few, who for what reason do not think the rules apply to them.

If we drove cars with the same reckless abandon some people treat their allotment rules, we would have people driving at 100mph in 30 zones. I am sure that in that case, god forbid that a member of your family got injured or killed you would be the first to condemn the authorities for allowing this situation to develop.

As for stepping down as Chair of the Assoc., I do each year, prior to the AGM. and for the last 3yrs the membership have seen fit to re elect me as Chair. I as an elected officer and member of a committee have always reflected the wishes and opinions of the membership. If the membership wishes for me to step down I will do so.

As for the new agreement rules, as previously stated, put in an FOI inquiry in to the council it is their document. The document between them and myself is our private business, once you read through the requested document, you will be privy to the agreement issued to myself.

I hope that the information include in this reply is sufficient to put you mind at rest that I am not some barbarian.

I will defend to the utmost of my ability any tenant who is being unfairly prosecuted by the council or being bullied on our allotment site, either by an individual or group and that includes the committee.

Keep planting.

Digmore. 

[Digeroo]

The document between them and myself is our private business

Does that mean you have a different document from everyone else?

But it is frustrating hearing about how fair and open this agreement is and not being privy to it.

[Chrispy]

.....and it's the people who try to get around the rules that are the first to complain when somebody else breaks the rules.

[digmore]

Hi Digeroo,

There is one agreement in the borough with an add on section for any site that allows poultry. Secondly, the council should under the freedom of information act, (FOI) forward the 13 page document to anyone who makes an application. If I new how to do IT things and with the permission of the council, I would post it on here.

Digmore. 

[Unwashed]

being called a sod is the mildest of things I have been called over the years. lol.

That was unfortunate - I'm sorry for the typo, I thought I'd written "stood" - teaches me to re-read posts.

[Unwashed]

There is one agreement in the borough with an add on section for any site that allows poultry.

Section 12 Allotments Act 1950 - allotmenteers have a statutory right to keep chickens anywhere they choose on their allotments without the need to ask permission from anyone, and the council cannot prevent them (other than on public health grounds).

Secondly, the council should under the freedom of information act, (FOI) forward the 13 page document to anyone who makes an application. If I new how to do IT things and with the permission of the council, I would post it on here.

You started the thread extolling the virtues of the tenancy agreement so it seems poor form telling me get a copy from the council.

[digmore]

Hi Unwashed,

I thought it was a typing error but could nit resist the tease.

There are a few sites in the borough with poultry and they are sited in a situation to avoid either conflict with the houses around or as you say health reasons.

The agreement was issued by the council and as such its probably their document, could be wrong but out of courtesy to them I would ask everybody to put in an email FOI. It cost nothing.

Anyway administration aside, how are things in your neck of the woods, weather and planting wise.

We have had a good couple of days with sunshine with a slight but chill wind and frost at night. Not risking planting out yet, might leave till the back end of the month.

Keep in touch.

Digmore. 

[Unwashed]

I asked the council last Tuesday for a copy of the tenancy agreement. Still waiting.  Tenancy agreements should be published on a landlord's web site, and should certainly be available by return: How is a prospective tenant supposed to decide if the terms of the agreement are acceptable, before being asked to sign, if the agreement isn't public?

[digmore]

Hi Unwashed,

I signed a guy up on Sunday, he was given a copy of the new agreement and asked to read it through, take it away study it and if happy, come back and sign it in either mine or the secretary's presence as witnesses. He was happy to read through and sign it, there and then, as he said its an allotment not a peace agreement.

But in every case we are happy for the prospective tenant to take the agreement away study it and return it the following week. No problems with that and no pressure.

We have several people on our site with either learning difficulties or mental health issues, great care was taken with them during the transition period from the old to the new agreement, so there would be no upset caused.

Digmore. 

[Unwashed]

For anyone wanting a look the tenancy agreement is here.

It's 13 pages long which seems to me to be excessive.

Significant problems are that the council can increase the rent arbitrarily without notice, and can change the terms of the tenancy agreement arbitrarily without notice.  Making provision in the tenancy agreement to increase the rent and change the rules is fine, but the agreement must oblige the council to give sufficient notice of any change so that the tenant can pack up in good order and quit without loss, and it takes a full season to wind down like that so the agreement should stipulate that the tenant will receive 12 months notice of any changes before the changes take effect.

The agreement says that after two warnings for cultivation below the standard required by the agreement that any further cultivation problems will result in the tenancy being terminated without notice, and that isn't lawful.  Section 146 of the Law of Property 1925 obliges the council to give reasonable notice to put right any failings and the council can't unilaterally contract out of that provision.  Note also that the obligation imposed by Section 146 is for the tenant to be given reasonable time to put right any problem, so 28 days in only a minimum, and if it is not reasonable to put right the problem in 28 days then the council must give longer.  Drafting rules like this that exceed the council's power risk making the whole rule unenforceable.

The cultivation stipulations are reasonably prescriptive.  For example, you are only allowed to grow herbs and flowers on 10% of the plot, and I could imagine that a keen flower grower might want more space than that.  Allowing only 20% of the area for sheds, greenhouses, paths, compost bins, ponds, etc also seems pretty oppressive.  You couldn't for example use raised beds as you'd exceed the 20% allowance for paths.

There's a stipulation that the tenant is required to insure against third-party liability but quite honestly that's none of the council's business and they don't have the power to make such a rule.

The agreement says the council can remove any of the tenant's trees it likes after giving a month's notice, but it can't, and saying it can in the tenancy agreement doesn't make it so.  The tenant's trees are the tenant's trees and cutting them down without the tenant's permission is criminal damage.  If the tree is in a state which is breaking a site rule then the council can requie the tenant to put the matter right of be evicted, but the council can't just interfere with the tenant's stuff.

It says you can't go to your allotment other than in daylight, but the council's has not power to make such a rule which interferes with the tenant's inalienable right to the quiet enjoyment of their allotment.

It says "Tenants must comply with all directions given by an Officer of the Council or any directions properly given by the Committee of a self managed allotment site with regard to the content of these rules and the tenancy agreement."  It's not clear what this is supposed to mean, but the council need to respect the tenant's right to the quiet enjoyment of their property.

It says trees may not cast any shadow on a neighbouring plot, but even a lettuce will cast a shadow when the sun in low in the sky.  It's not an altogether unreasonable principle, but it needs expressing in terms of the height and spread of trees - bean frames are likely to cast more of a shadow than most apple trees anyways.

It says that council permission is required to keep hens and to build their houses and runs, but that's not actually true.  Nothing the council can say or do prevents you from exercising your right to keeps hens on any part of your allotment.

It says "No third party company or individual paid or unpaid can cultivate an allotment garden / plot on behalf and under the instruction of the allotment garden / plot tenant." but the council has no power to make such a rule and the rule interferes with the tenant's right to the quiet enjoyment of their allotment.

It says that the council can dismantle your shed or greenhouse if in their opinion it isn't being maintained, and that they'll charge the tenant for doing so.  They can't interfere with the tenant's stuff like this and they have no power to make such a rule.

It says the council can inspect your plot and look in your shed whenever they like without notice, but they can't as this interferes with the tenant's right to the exclusive possession and quiet enjoyment of their plot.  Curiously enough it also says that the police can look in your shed whenever they want, but the police will know full well that a warrant is required unless they have reasonable grounds to believe that a crime is being committed.

[sparrow]

Hi Unwashed,
I think your link is broken, I get this 'Oops! Google Chrome could not find "https'.

Would be interesting to compare with our agreement, which is only 4 pages long - perhaps because we've split things out into the Allotment Rules, the tenancy agreement and rules on structures/livestock. The tenant agrees to abide by the rules on signing.

[Chrispy]

Try https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/201656/response/494388/attach/html/3/St%20Helens%20allotment%20tenancy%20agreement%20new.doc.html

[sparrow]

Thanks Chrispy!

My personal opinion is that many of the paragraphs (limiting what you can grow, put on your own paths, cover your beds with) are unnecessarily circumscribed. I like the no carpet rule, but I don't understand why plastic sheeting (tarps and weed membrane I presume?) are also banned. Our periods for notice to quit and termination on death are also longer and with the word reasonable in it a lot. For example I can't imagine being able to deal with clearing a plot within 3 months if someone close to me died. And we have no obligation for insurance.

I don't mean this as an attack, I can see where a lot of the rules might come from. However it seems  to me to be a vehicle for dictating nearly everything that a tenant might do and so they are an awful lot more prescriptive than ours and written in quite a forbidding tone.

[Unwashed]

Try https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/201656/response/494388/attach/html/3/St%20Helens%20allotment%20tenancy%20agreement%20new.doc.html

Thanks Chrispy!

[digmore]

Hi guys,

Many thanks to Unwashed and Crispy for their IT input. Sorry I could not myself.

Ok, have a read through and see what you think.

Digmore.