Topic: Brassicas: Annual Humiliation

[Number Six]

Now reached that time of year when I watch my brassica crop (savoy cabbage, calabrese, colly and spouts) being chomped by caterpillars etc. Had some cheap Wilko netting over them which stopped the pigeons getting at them but not the butterflies - and then the sprouts outgrew the netting so I removed it and replaced it with 'dangling CDs'.

The colly and calabrese have already produced a good crop but I obviously need to do a re-think for next year to protect the cabbage & sprouts. Greatly appreciate any advice on netting or any other techniques for protecting brassicas.

Many thanks

John

[kt.]

A very dilute solution of Jeyes fluid put in the planting hole when transplanting is a good deterrent. 

http://www.rnzih.org.nz/Plant_Doctor/WG090_Jeyes_fluid.htm

http://www.google.co.uk/search?sourceid=navclient&aq=&oq=jeyes+fluid+on+ve&ie=UTF-8&rlz=1T4TEUA_enGB515GB485&q=jeyes+fluid+on+vegetables&gs_l=hp..0.0.0.0.0.18037...........0.oEPgN0aLBBo

[Duke Ellington]

Builders debris netting will keep the butterflies off your brassicas.

http://www.scaffolding-direct.co.uk/debris-netting-3m-x-50m-green-.aspx

[ed dibbles]

Will be trying the debris netting next season.

Meanwhile my diluted bicarbonate of soda/detergent/salt mix sprayed on the brassicas three times a week or so is having positive results against the caterpillars again this year.

Shh don't tell anyone but we pulled ten Supersmeltz kohl rabi today almost the size of footballs!

[Jeanbean]

Same advice as Duke. Our first year , although we netted the brassicas with the cheap net the butterflies fold their wings to get through the mesh and they were completely wiped out by caterpillars. We had a large walk in cage made and covered with debris neting. Cabbages fine but we didn't give thought to the snow laying on the roof and the weight causing cage to collapse. With the next cage we made the top netting removable for the winter and now we have total success. No butterflies and no collapse so we are happy. We used green netting but now wish we had chosen black as it is less vsisble. Jeanbean

[Digeroo]

I find the little critters seem to be getting under the netting.  I thought it was just me, but there are very few without butterflies inside.

The other solutions is to check all the leaves for the yellows spots every two to three days and squash.

[manicscousers]

Ours are laying the eggs on the outside of the netting where the leaf touches it, never had that before 

[Number Six]

Many thanks to all for comments and excellent advice so far. Never thought of debris netting and had not heard about using a Jeyes solution. Much food for thought.

Meanwhile my diluted bicarbonate of soda/detergent/salt mix sprayed on the brassicas three times a week or so is having positive results against the caterpillars again this year.

Ed - would you mind sharing details of your spray with us - what proportions of soda/detergent/salt/water do you use?

[ed dibbles]

Normally I just put a bit in of each and fill with water but if I were to put quantities to it there would be about a table spoonful of soda and salt with a squirt of washing up liquid, the cheap stuff, to about a gallon or gallon and a half of water.

With watering can and rose or sprayer apply to the brassica leaves about three times per week during the caterpillar season.

So why this mix?

Soda can be used as an effective insecticide and provides one prong of what is a three pronged attack . It wouldn't surprise me if the expensive "Bug Clear" products you get in the local Wilcos/QuickieMart turned out to be just diluted soda water or something similar. Wouldn't put it past them!

Detergent is also active against pests as well as a wetting agent. Likely to help against cabbage aphid and brassica whitefly too.

Wild cabbages that all our brassicas descend are coastal plants so can take a little salt. Medwyn Williams, who displays his prizewinning veg at Chelsea and elsewhere side dresses his brassicas with salt claiming it makes them grow better. Dressing crops with salt is also sometimes recommended with beetroot and with asparagus, again coastal plants.

Caterpillars hate it and it will also help with slugs getting into the cabbages no doubt.

The effect of this mix is that the caterpillars it comes in contact with soon become desiccated even after they fall to the ground. (something they do as a defence mechanism). Any unsprayed ones that take a nibble of the mix soon succumb too. It's not 100% but provides good control cheaply.

Salt/soda and detergent are all chemicals of course. Yet how many cook veg in salt water or put it on food. Some also put bi-carb in their cooking water to preserve their greens colour.

[Jeanbean]

Thanks Ed for that 'recipe' and information.  I agree with you that many of us already use salt and bi carb in cooking green veg and as for washing up liquid I bet there is many a residue left on pans, so all in all we would be doing nothing out of the ordinary. I intend to give this a go on the swedes.  As I think they are amember of the brasssica family we were putting them in the cages but they were not really forming any sort of decent swede. Mary read they liked being in an open envirnoment so have done so and only covered with the cheap net. Guess where the CW congregate? Not rocket science, so we have a problem on them. Jeanbean

[Number Six]

And many thanks from me as well Ed. I will certainly be trying out your mix - presumably it's not too late to start using it on whatever is left of the brassicas?

Cheers

John

[Tee Gee]

I have read the other posts and generally go along with all that has been said, particularly the Jeyes fluid issue!

Although I am not quite sure about the debris netting?  as I think along with not allowing the penetration of insect life, it must also reduce light levels which to my mind is not a good thing!

I have found that ¾" bird netting is enough ( I have more problems with birds rather than cabbage whites)

As you will see below,  I use armillatox which has the same properties & smell of jeyes fluid, in fact I have often think that they are both the same!

The benefits I find are many! e.g.

When it first came out it was said it would deter club root, but I have also found that it deter cabbage root fly as well.

Add to this I think the smell deters cabbage whites also.

 I have noticed there seems to be a lot of Cabbage whites around this year and I have noticed they swoop into my brassicas but don't seem to settle, meaning they don't lay their eggs meaning no caterpillars.

Now I am no expert in " Chemical Warfare" ( in gardening terms) but I think this product although a  bit pricy is well worth the money because ( touch wood / fingers crossed) I never have trouble with the pests & diseases I have mentioned!

This is how I plant my brassicas;

http://www.thegardenersalmanac.co.uk/Data/Brassica%20planting/brassica%20planting.html

[ancellsfarmer]

I have used this debris netting , having received a roll as a "gift" and can assure that the light loss is not a factor to me. I have found that the various calabrese, cauliflowers and cabbages have evenly and vigourously grown, better than I have managed before. I think this is due to the "microclimate" within the "tent" constructed, no wind rock and no bird damage. I have found several butterflies under the canopy and believe they penetrate through the lace holes.There is no escape for them then! I am considering use of more over the raised bed salad area that I am building and would be pleased for any reports of  for salad crops under this material. At about £32 per 100 sq metres, with a predicted life of ,? ,4 years ,thats 8p per square metre per year. About 4 radishes!

[MervF]

I have found debris netting is also good for carrots.   Last year I tried it for the first time and had the biggest carrots and biggest crop I have ever had.   It also keeps the carrot fly off and the rain gets through.   The only drawback I found was that the weeds grew better too!!

[Jeanbean]

With regard to the lace holes, I know it sounds a f*g,  but I run the whole roll through my sewing machine pulling the holes together using a zig zag stich and black cotton. Works for us but you do have to have someone with a machine willing to get embroiled in yards of debris netting. 

[Number Six]

Suspect I'm now in danger of being drummed out of the forum but, after all the above excellent advice, does anyone use non-organic methods for protecting their brassicas? Yes, I'm talking about commercial insecticides. There - I said it! If so, which ones do you use?

I'm obviously trying to be organic as possible but, in the absence of home produce, I buy veg from supermarkets which has certainly been chemically treated during its life cycle. So am I being precious by trying to beat nature without resorting to chemical warfare? Just trying to think outside of the box

[pumkinlover]

Suspect I'm now in danger of being drummed out of the forum but, after all the above excellent advice, does anyone use non-organic methods for protecting their brassicas? Yes, I'm talking about commercial insecticides. There - I said it! If so, which ones do you use?

I'm obviously trying to be organic as possible but, in the absence of home produce, I buy veg from supermarkets which has certainly been chemically treated during its life cycle. So am I being precious by trying to beat nature without resorting to chemical warfare? Just trying to think outside of the box

No you will not get drummed out! I do not use pesticides-( except on my alpines and cacti). I cannot help you as I haven't used them on food crops for years but I can understand what you are saying.

[ancellsfarmer]

Suspect I'm now in danger of being drummed out of the forum but, after all the above excellent advice, does anyone use non-organic methods for protecting their brassicas? Yes, I'm talking about commercial insecticides. There - I said it! If so, which ones do you use?

I'm obviously trying to be organic as possible but, in the absence of home produce, I buy veg from supermarkets which has certainly been chemically treated during its life cycle. So am I being precious by trying to beat nature without resorting to chemical warfare? Just trying to think outside of the box

Personnally, I would rather use other means than chemicals to achieve a crop that would not kill a pest, but which does not contain one. Therefore out-witting them(!) is my preference. However, the cost/effort required needs to be proportionate to the advantage.This year for example,I grew a selection of brassicas, and planted out sufficient for my needs.(under my debris netting(see above). The excess plants were offered to those I know and this left just a few surplus. I am fortunate in having a spare area of ground which is not fenced against the cursed(but nutricious) rabbit. I decided that the surplus could be put in "beyond the pale"THe second night a rabbit attack was received, and duly suppressed. No more were lost. Now these unprotected plants are suffering caterpillar attack. So far only about 10 % have caterpillars. My first retalliation was by squashing all I could see. Probably got 50%. . This weekend, aim to spray using soda bic & salt as above. Expected cost of materials, less than 50p. , 48 plants. If repeated Weds and Sat say £1 more.
RTU insecticide 500ml £4.99 BUG GUN  True cost on vegs unknown.

[Amazingrotavator(Derby)]

Try something like this. Note props in the large one to stop the snow collapsing it.

[Paulh]

You need to be generous with the area (and height) that you net, as the plants always grow bigger than you expect and if the leaves touch the net, the butterflies lay their eggs through it on to the leaves inside. But even then it's usually manageable for me to clean up the few that start eating the plants.