Topic: Amino Pyralid how long to go away

[Digeroo]

Can anyone who has had a problem give me details of how long deffect have taken to disappear.

I am told the half life in soil is 35 days.   I am becoming convinced that some soil just does not have the correct bacteria and so it is still hanging around several years later.

[aj]

I've only logged back in for this post; due to having been stung again with some mowings that have affected some tomatoes at a site I garden in in Coventry.

Anyway - the muck on my allotment was in situ for 12 weeks either sat on the soil, as a mulch or dug in and we had 90% of it removed 2 years ago.

It is still affecting plants.

Where it was dug in and raked out, all the stuff we couldn't get out was still affecting crops last year but seems to have minimal effects this year.

Where it was used as a mulch and was taken off, things seem to be nearly back to normal

Where it was stored [not dug in] whilst we barrowed it around, and collected it again awaiting it being collected, we still can't use the bed. It is now being used as a composting bed, but even swiss chard still grew crinkly in it over winter. However, it is now supporting a couple of self grown potatoes and it has a couple of nasturtiums that are surviving so I have high hopes for next year.

So that's 2 whole summer seasons for raked and mulched, and in reality 3 for where it was standing.

We are on clay - good thick clay. And each bed was dug over regularly as and when each crop failed - we just kept growing on it in the hope that things might survive.

However, I have a lovely crop of goose grass which has been badly affected [the leaves are all mangled and curly], and every now and then a rogue plant pops up that is obviously badly affected so there still must be some in there. These get pulled as soon as spotted and that area turned over again.

[shirlton]

So good to see you on here aj. Sorry about the bad stuff.

[Digeroo]

Many thanks AJ.  Please could people post

Have had the following in an email from Dow

Aminopyralid has a half life of 35 days so will break down fairly quickly once in contact with soil bacteria.

What a lot of rot.  We are still experiencing problems year 3.  Though have to admit no problems from year 4 contamination.

[Aden Roller]

Is there any information about how long it is before there are no chemical traces in plants grown on the affected area?

Although something might look fine it may not mean that the plant is totally free of it. A bit of a worry to say the least.

[davyw1]

Not To be quoted but when i read up on it when it first appeared i came to the conclusion that it is retained in the straw so there for would be present until all and i mean every little peace is completely disintergrated.

[Digeroo]

My plot neighbour had quite a problem with beans grown on compost of things like brassicas which showed little problems.  He did not compost the contaminated remains.  So while the straw may finally disappear the problem seem to be able to pass to the next crop and the  weeds.  Very worrying indeed. 

Dow are obviously still in denial.

[sunloving]

Hi
We had two full years of not being able to grow dahlias in the infected areas then one year of crappy growth and this year is the first year that things look normal.

In the greenhouse however this is year four of pointed tomatoes and ferny growth.

I think 12 weeks is bullshit, maybe at 30 degrees in a solution in the lab?.
As above its about the slow decay of straw probably and despite it not being licensed for cereals this is the most likely explanation for the persistence.
Good luck
Oylimic spnsers that not only paid for the destruction of allotment plots at the site but who have trashed hundreds more with thier chemicals.

[realfood]

It affected susceptible crops, such as potatoes for 3 years on my plot. If you have composted any plant material from affected plants, and put it back onto the ground, it will affect the new crops. And so it can go on and on.

[Aden Roller]

How about safety of eating crops grown on soil where it has been used or has contaminated?

Asking out of concern and interest - (I use almost exclusively compost on my plot.)

[Digeroo]

The officially accepted wisdom is that AP is totally safe.  It is supposed to pass through animals unchanged and then is passed in their urine from which it then attaches itself to plants.

However since it does so much damage to plants in apparently very small concentrations, I personally am not happy about it.  I suspect it is well into the food change.  There is no way of identifying whether food you buy is contaminated with it.  And surprisingly organic food is more likely to be carrying it.

I have no understanding of why when it was shown to create so much of a problem it was relicenced.  No idea of who uses it and why they need it so much. 

It is supposed to be broken down in the soil by bacteria but have failed to be told which bacteria these are and how I can get samples of the correct ones.  I have assumed that perhaps my soil does not contain the correct ones.  Maybe the lime in the soil is an adverse factor in prevently breakdown.

The product comes licenced only for particular usages and with a strictly control stewardship system which is supposed to ensure that anything grown on the affected land stays on it.  But is persists in my experience to several years longer than they seem to admit.  It is colourless and more of less odourless and until your grow something in it you cannot tell one contaminated plant from the next.   Grasses including sweet corn show little signs of damage but when composted or become manure they then cause problems. 

I personally do not understand how they can prevent it 'escaping'.  Particularly when it has already been proved time and time again that when it does 'escape' there is no way it can be tracked back to the user.   Almost no one has been able to do this.

I object very strongly that I cannot prevent this product from getting into the food I eat.  Someone somewhere chooses to use it, I want the similar right to choose not to have it in my food.

Rant over.

[Aden Roller]

I'm inclined to agree with you Digeroo. I know soil is naturally made up of all sorts of chemical compounds but tend to prefer to have only the naturally occurring ones on/in my food. No doubt there are enough of those that are dangerous without adding man-made ones.

My dad was a great user of DDT and sprinkled the stuff all over the place. As it was considered safe to use I guess I've eaten a fair bit of that in my time.

I dare not let my OH know that my father used the stuff on the plot that I now grow our food on - if she knew the veg, fruit and spuds I take home may well end up on the garden compost heap.  ::)

Amino pyralid is particularly worrying as it is so easy to see how if adversely influences the way things grow.